WIP Critique Werner Voss and Ernst Udet (AC Models)

Ulrich · Jul 30, 2010

Hi. Here are the first photos from my pilot busts from Andy. I like that "little" busts but they are not ready at the moment. Many things left to do. I often use the photos to see where I had to correct some mistakes and what looks wrong.

The uniform is nearly finished, the faces and the hairs not. There are many things to do.

So now it your parts with the first comments.

Ulrich

Nap · Jul 30, 2010

WIP

Hi Ulrich ,
Like what you are doing with these , whats the colour mixes for the uniforms ?...don't bother I have just seen the other post !!! MANY THANKS

Like the hair colour on the 2nd one , I must admit I do like these from Andy , hopefully SK miniatures will get these on the site soon.

Keep us all posted

Nap

housecarl · Jul 30, 2010

Nicely done, but I feel the paint is too thick.
Carl.

TWOMOONS · Jul 30, 2010

This may sound sophmoric...but could someone please tell me: what is the measurement of a bust like this, from chin to hairline? Not scale; in inches (or MM,,,either is fine...I'm an international kind of guy).
And: is this the common size...if there are others, what would they measure?
My deepest appreciation...

Ulrich · Jul 30, 2010

The whole figure is 81 mm high. From chin until end of the head 21mm. Andy said the scale is 1:10

Both has the same measurement. I know that Andy had made some more and think that is will be the same.

Ulrich

amcairns · Jul 30, 2010

The scale is a little smaller than 1/10 in fact its more like 1/12.
Andy

Ulrich · Jul 31, 2010

Carl: I could be but in that case it is the base color. I try to paint it like a washing but sometimes I am a little bit impatient and so I only paint it in onetime where it would better to paint it in twice

Ulrich

P.S.: But you can see it only on the photo or you use magnifying glasses

dave mosher · Jul 31, 2010

Ulrich

I would suggest a couple of color changes on both of your busts. Both the M-15 Kleinerrock for Voss and the M-15 Bluse for Udet would have the "apple green" collar. Voss initially started the war with the 11. Husar Rgt. For the Kleinerrock for that unit, the rectangular collar tab and the shoulder board piping would be a medium to dark green (contrasting from the apple green collar) and the buttons would be silver. Currently, your color combination for Voss is that of the field artillery (red tabs, red piping and brass buttons). For Udet, the piping on the boards should be "mouse gray" for the air service (and some other units) vs. white which was for infantry, and the buttons would be a dull silver.

Regards

Dave

akaryu · Jul 31, 2010

Very interesting point indeed!
Strangely the Model cellar rendition of the Voss bust also shows him with red piped officer's shoulder straps. If Voss, who was commisioned after joining the Fliegertruppe, was dressed in any regular fashion any all, he should be depicted as Dave pointed out or in the regular uniform of a Fliegertruppe officer. I don't see where the red shoulder strap piping could be explained.Perhaps one of our German members can shed some light on this?

cheers,
piet

Ulrich · Jul 31, 2010

Dave. Thanks you very much. I have found no information about Udet, so I use white. But I will change it into mouse grey.

I know that Voss was member of the "Tanzhusaren" the 2. Westfälisches Husarenregiment 11. I found in a book that the "Kolpak" was "ponceaured" and the sholderstraps "Dunkelgrün/Weiß" = darkgreen and white at the attila. So I use red.

You find red piping not only for the artillery, some Ulan-Regiments for example had red piping at the uniform too

Can you tell me your source for your color-informations?

I think I will have a look too and will change it into "Dunkelgrün"

Ulrich

dave mosher · Jul 31, 2010

Ulrich and Piet

This is a scan of a contemporary reference, Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden; 2 Teil, Offiziere und Beamte for the 1915 uniforms by Otto Weiss. I have been collecting feldgrau and imperial headgear for 20 years and have an extensive reference library for both, so if you have any other questions, let me know. For the 1915 regs, the field artillery (exc Garde FA) would have a red base only. As you said, there are a few ulan regiments that had red piping and would have had the red collar tabs, also. However, for the 1915 regs for the Kleinerrock as a rule, all ulan regiments used the base red collar tab and base red shoulder board piping, but would also have a secondary piping border (tab and strap) based on their original shoulder strap color.

Regards

Dave

From top to bottom, the Friedensuniform, Bluse and Kleinerrock

Ulrich · Jul 31, 2010

Dave.

Thank you very much for your efforts. Your answer confirmed with the information in the book "Imperial german field uniforms and equipment 1907 - 1918" from Johan Somers. Here I found a list where the Piping of the Rock of the 11th hussars is Scarlet and the patches are darkgreen

So I had to change the colors.

That is what I love at this forum. Here you can get many informations.

Thanks again Dave

Ulrich

Btw. I think I will try to get the book "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden"

dave mosher · Jul 31, 2010

Ulrich

If you truly want to be the "imperial feldgrau wizard" on your block, the definitive "bible" for feldgrau is "die Feldgrau Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907-1918" by Jurgen Kraus. The first copies were sold as a two volume set in a limited production in the 1980s. Since then, they were sought after by historians and collectors alike and when found, cost a high price (200 Euro and up). Fortunately, the set was reissued last year by Verlag Militaria (www.militaria.at), but still has a hefty price of 170 Euro. By the way, portions of the 3 volume original Otto Weiss booklets ( which only deal with prussian units) which I own, are copied and incorporated into the Jurgen Kraus book, as well as the other states.

I have found a couple of minor inaccuracies, but all in all, if you want to have one reference for feldgrau, this is it.

Regards

Dave

Ulrich · Aug 1, 2010

Dave.

I know that books and have had a look at the earlier two book-version in our library. So the three "new" books are on my wishing list for "christmas" or perhaps earlier.

Thanks again

Ulrich

akaryu · Aug 1, 2010

Dave,

Both the 1999's Biblio Verlag edition of Kraus and his "Die Deutsche Armee" published by Militaria Verlag are on my bookshelves, but I wonder if Voss, who was not commisioned before joining the Fliegertruppe, wore the distinctives of his "old" unit i.e. the 11th Husaren, or the regulation uniform for the Fliegertruppe.
Kraus states on p711 of his 1999 biblio verlag book:" Offiziere, die von anderen Truppengattungen zur Fliegertruppe versetzt worden waren, trugen häufig ihre alte Uniform (vielfach die der Kavallerie), nur mit neuen Schulterstücken weiter."
But what with Mannschaften or Unteroffiziere who, like Voss, were commisioned as officers AFTER joining the Fliegertruppe?

Like to hear your ideas in this point,
cheers

dave mosher · Aug 1, 2010

Piet:

I had never really thought about it before, but after looking at several pictures of Voss wearing Litzen in his regulation Bluse (11 H.R would not), it would make sense that Mannschaften or Unteroffiziere transfering into the Air Service would wear that uniform, and if promoted to Lt.d. Res, would retain that uniform. Also, in looking at pictures of Udet as an NCO, he is wearing the uniform for the Air Service although he started out the war as a dispatch rider for the 26.Res. Division. Once he was promoted to Lt.d.Res., he wore the the litzen of the Air Service on his officer's Bluse.

The bottom line in this is, I now believe the collar tabs and shoulder board piping for Voss should be mouse gray and the buttons, silver.

Great discussion. Ulrich, I hope you haven't painted collar tabs and shoulder board piping, yet!!

Regards

Dave

Ulrich · Aug 1, 2010

I will have a look too and find it is a good discussion. But perhaps I must paint then "mausgrau", after I have paint it earlier this day "darkgreen"

But please now discussion after that about "paint to thick"

Ulrich

akaryu · Aug 1, 2010

Ulrich,

Mausgrau would probably be the wisest choice, I hope you hadn't to repaint collar tabs each time we discussed the subject

But it shows quite a relevant point i.e. in spite of the photographic evidence of Sanke cards and so on, we have very little info about the real colours of the uniform and distinctions some of the German aces wore.

All the best,

Piet

Ulrich · Aug 3, 2010

Dave & Piet and everyone else who is interested in. Perhaps you can help me. I have found different informations about piping the collar tabs of Ernst Udet. Black with silver litzen is ok, but sometimes they are piping in red and in another forum I found a thread that this was typical for the german airforce.

But sometimes I found only black with silver litzen but no piping.

What do you mean? I think red piping could be ok.

And if we will find some more informations I had to use a dishing machine tab, because the colour would be a "little" thick on some parts, I fear

And I will paint now a little bit on the faces because there I had not to change the "colours"

Ulrich

akaryu · Aug 4, 2010

Hallo Ulrich,

Sorry for the late reply, I was on night duty. Red piped black tabs with silver Litzen sounds very much OK to me. Jürgen Kraus states for the Kgl. Pr. FlBatNr1 in Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg on page 484: "Offiziere trügen mattsilberne Litzen, die am Kragen auf Patten aus schwarzem Samt mit ponceaurotem Vorstoss angebracht würden. He shows a colour photo of a Feldrock so adorned. On the next page he continues to state that as a rule the officers wore the same kind of distinctions on their Bluse and illustrates the irregularities by showing a Bluse without the expected Doppellitzen! So you have some leeway there.
In period photos it is rather difficult to distinguish the red piping from the black background of the patches, so don't reach for the paint stripper while we discuss this

regards,
piet

WIP Critique Werner Voss and Ernst Udet (AC Models)

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