Advice

[Robin]

Hi all

I have been thinking about doing this post for a while, how to word it etc, and feel I can get my point across.

At Euro I spoke to alot of people on our stand about how to paint this and how to paint that, mostly on how I use the printers inks we sell, which could be construed as giving advice. I am nowhere near as good as some that post here but I do manage to hold my own.

Well the question now is how good or useful is my advice? Well this got me thinking how good is anyones advice. Years ago 6 to be exact I took some figures to Euro, I entered them and got the shock of my life when I noticed the standard around mine. Luckily for me a gentleman called Paul Blaber was next to me and he offered frank and forthcoming advice on my style and standards of my figures. He took the time to point out where I was going wrong in his opinion. Some of which was quite cutting, forcing me to not only rethink my style but also how I work.

Now my point is can only people better than you give advice or can a fresh pair of eyes on our figures novice or expert provide that missing link for our skills. So who do we listen to, noone or everyone. My reasoning is everyone as they see your figures differently, so what is wrong with taking on board (if only for a few minutes) what they say look and if you can see what they do look more closely. If it helps change your style for the better thank them next time you see them. It Could perhaps mean the difference between a highly commeded or a bronze or maybe a silver and gold.

Whats your thoughts guys

My thanks to Paul Blaber years ago

Looking forward to the replies

Robin

 

[Anders Heintz]

Hey Robin!

Interesting topic!

I personally think that anyone is qualified to give constructive critisism, we all know what a human face looks like, we all know what gold,silver or bronze should look like(The metals, not the awards). All people may not be able to help with the techniques, but most people can say wether or not it looks right or wrong.

As far as taking advice, I think that some people are more inclined to lissten then others, and sometimes it is worthless trying to say something in trying to help out.

The main problem I think is that when someone asks me what I think of this or that, is wether to sugar coat it or not. I am pretty straight forward when someone asks me personally what I think, I will be 'blunt' about it, wether good or bad. Not to demise the person, but to help them, because if all you say is great stuff blah blah blah they will get 'spoiled' and get pissed when saying maybe try this or that instead. While on the other hand if you are sincere all the time then a great job or well done means so much more. I also think that it depends on the persons skill level how to critiqe their work, if they are new, support is good while if they have been at it a while some more advanced critique is in place.

I think Doug Cohen have given me the best advice, he was straight forward, to the point and sincere and it helped me tremendously.

 

[Johan]

Robin,

I am always grateful for any advice, and I learn from it. I remember recently when I showed Quang a head of PiLiPiLi's cowboy that I finished, he told me to add just a touch of turquoise oil paint as a glaze here and there because my skin tones were too red ... and guess what: he's right about that; it looks better now with that touch of turquoise, and in fact I now put a little touch of turquoise in my basic skin tone mix!

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Hmm..........deja vu!

I also visited Euro Millitaire for the first time at the end of the past century, namely 1998. I was confident until I saw the other entries. Then I realized how much I had left to learn.
Heres the entrants I brought that year, by the way.

However, giving criticism is allways a touchy subject that can really upset people and break egos even if its been asked for. Its also important if it is asked for and how its given.

But if you wanna develop as a painter you have to take some critique. However, its only the painter himself that decide to act upon it, not necessarly has one to agree.

I think Ive seen it all. On the net there are people just like your mom that says everything looks great no matter what, there are also people who tell you the imprint on the 54mm scale button is wrong etc.

I for one find it hard not to say when asked upon if I feel something could be better or is wrong. On the other hand, it is so much better if you know the person a little, knows his curve and can see which step is the next for him as well as to tell him how to improve. Modest suggestions like: I usually do it .....or: I would try this....etc. If there are many mistakes or faults, it is better to take the basic ones first. It doesnt matter if its the wrong camopattern if there are big seams still on the figure etc.

When this subject comes up, I always think of the time when I practised martial art. My instructor where always on my back, correcting even the slightest mistaken in the moves. Giving me extra push-up etc. Finally after two and a half years I got brave enough to ask why, especially since I was among the best in my group and he was not correcting other below me as much. The answer I got changed me view of this subject for ever.
"-Because you got the potential to be really good, and thats why I train you harder so you will be that good."
So, nowdays Im thankful(for the most at least) when somebody takes time and help me get better. And in what other kind of competitions does the your competitors give you advice to get better, hold seminars, write articles and books. That is what is so great about this hobby.

Some people can judge and give advice above their own level of painting but most can not. Others cant even see difference among work above their own level.

I can tell you for sure that if I critize any of you its simply because I intend to help you, this whether Im right or wrong in my points. If you just want a pat on the back and a: "-Great work!" Just let me know before and Ill do that as might as well as it is so much easier than to critize.

Cheers

 

[megroot]

Great topic Robin,

I have on my club AMSS some great painters. For instance, Lisa Tannberg, Gino Poppe etc.
I asked them the ears from there head. They also give's adivse, critic's etc.
If i get that than how should i learn to paint all those lovely figure's.
I 'am glad that they say it as it is. That's the way to learn.
On Euro i drink some beers with Jhon Brewer, there after we went to the contest, and he let me seen what where very good and good figure's. He also explaind to me why they are so good and some others are not so good.
But that was his oppion. Also from such a visit where the skills are skyhy you can learned from the opion of somebody.
So for me. All that i can learn from another is good for me. When i see my first 54 mm and now my fourth, that is also better than the first. But it is thanks to all the advices.
If you stand no open for the advices and critics you never gonna be better.

I hope my English was good enough for this.

Marc

 

[Anders Heintz]

I think Janne hit it right on with this:

"But if you wanna develop as a painter you have to take some critique. However, its only the painter himself that decide to act upon it, not necessarly has one to agree."

It all depends on the person receiveing the critique and if he wants to be becomme better or not. If a person is striving to become a better painter/sculptor chanses are that they will lissten and analyse what they have been told and then act upon, while someone who think they are allready so good they don't need any advice from someone like you, could care less if you think it needs a slight increase in highlight or not.

Although, there is the personal side of it, I know some people don't like contrast, but since I do, assuming I don't know this person don't like it, I would suggest that they add more contrast, but since it is not a personal preference it don't matter if it makes for a better figure or not, they just dislike contrast. On the otherhand some like weatherd figures while others don't, then it will be hard to convince either that it should be done the other way.

Which raises another question.

Do you think that personal preference can get in the way of painting a better figure?

 

[megroot]

Do you think that personal preference can get in the way of painting a better figure?

Now, they are not in the way, but you get let your ears open...
For myself i don't like to much contrast. In my club there are people who like very much contrast. I like it when i 'am see it. But i cannot get it over me to do it.
Makes me that a less painter. No, but i 'am learning everyday, to listen to others, but my personal preference (not to much contrast) is not in the way the become a better painter.

Marc.

 

[Roc]

I believe that all figure painters have something to offer, I always welcome other people’s point of views and advice even from people with less experience.

I've also been asked many times to critique other peoples work, I found that good constructive and honest critique is always appreciated.
I have also asked people to critique my work and it's helped me immensely.

The bottom line is we should give advice when asked and when we post
A picture on a forum, we should not be offended by constructive criticism; we should appreciate the fact that the person critiquing took the time to do it.
Just my two cents.

Cheers,

Roc

 

[Brad S]

I agree with a lot that has already been said above, but interesting enough is the fact that my wife has been the most efluencial person in the improvement of my figures from the standpoint of criticism. She doesn't paint figures, doesn't know much about the history of the subject, or the techniques, but she has an eye for what seems wrong or right. She and I have an agreement that I want her to tell me the truth about the figure, and I wont take it personally. That alone helps enourmously.

Brad Spelts

 

[captnenglish]

Robin,

Giving and getting advise is a major part of what keeps our community going. That having been said, I rarely give advice (and when I do, I have my legal team look at it first ). Why? Two reasons, 1) I just don't think I am qualified 2) I have gotten to much sh@# for it. Getting back to your question, yes anyone can give sound advice. I have to say though, that the best advice I have gotten was from Bill Horan and the best compliment was from Doug Cohen who kept me from chucking it all.

 

[frank h]

Hi,
On the subject of advice/constructive criticism
I believe you can learn from any source

The majority of us are not professionals ie making our living
painting/building figures but that does not mean we cannot adopt
a professional attitude.

I was fortunate to have Alan Ball pass comments on my U-Boat
Commander bust and taking Alans comments on board my next
figure will benefit from the advice I recieved (thanks Alan)

I think in order to improve we should be honest with ourselves
and ask for advice. We should also be able to take criticism in the
spirit in which it is given and enjoy this great "hobby" of ours

As you say "That's my two cents worth"

Frank

 

[thegoodsgt]

A few thoughts about giving advice.

First, it's always dangerous to give advice to someone you don't know very well, because you don't know how he's going to take it. For example, I'd be much more critical with Lou Masses, because I know him and I know he'd want honest feedback. But I wouldn't be as straightforward with a relative stranger who simply approached me at a show.

When approached for criticism or advice, I think the best way to engage someone in a dialog (rather than a lecture) is to turn the question around and ask him, "Where do you think the weaknesses are in this figure?" Chances are, anyone seeking advice already knows where he needs to improve, so your feedback probably won't come as a surprise.

In all cases, it's very important to say something positive about the person's work, even if it's just to compliment him on taking a risk or to look over his display and pick out a figure that represents his best work.

As others have pointed out, always recognize personal preferences and qualify any suggestions with a disclaimer.

Finally, when REQUESTING feedback, if you sincerely want honesty and not a blow of smoke up your arse, say something like, "...and please, I want you to make me a little uncomfortable."

 

[yeo_64]

Hi guys :lol: ! Speaking from personal experience,I for one believe that we can learn from the advice of anyone who cares to give it,whether a newbie or a pro. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes is all that's needed to see the flaws in your latest work. Thanks to the great people here on the "planet" ,I've managed to not only improve on my painting skills,but also my sculpting ! The willingness to accept all points of view is the key to improving on your standard of modelling. Just my 2 cents worth too ! Cheers.
Kenneth

 

[slaj]

Rob , I think that anyone can give advice/critiques about a figure. Not just those who sculpt and paint. I can tell because my worst critique is my wife. She can pinpoint an error with just a glance and even though I don't admit it easily she's nearly always right. As to giving advice and critisisms, that is a very touchy subject. If I know the person in question then I can assess how he will take it and can be very straight about it because I know I'm safe :lol: . If ,on the other hand I don't know the person , I'm very cautious. I will still be very honest in whatever I say but will say it subtly. One thing I've learnt is that a new pair of eyes are always welcome. We have the habit at our club to take figures to meetings during the sculpting/painting process. That way we can correct any mistakes before it's too late. Nobody's perfect. It's just a matter of talent. There are some who have a lot of it and others a little less. But that doesn't mean that they are inferior. They still have a lot to offer.
Finally , and this is very important , I NEVER , ever measure my figures according to competition results. Especially some shows!! You have mentioned euro. I have been there last in 2000 and do not really intend to go after an incident I had when I was there last. Even though , by now it's way been forgotten the scar remains !!

Stephen Mallia

 

[thegoodsgt]

Originally posted by slaj@Sep 27 2004, 11:45 AM
I NEVER, ever measure my figures according to competition results.

Good point, Stephen. That is a lesson learned by Yang Tae-young, the South Korean gymnast who "lost" a gold medal to American Paul Hamm because the judges made a mistake scoring their routines.

 

[Roc]

I agree with Stephen, Competetitions and medals do not measure a persons capabilities and skills, personally I could care less about cmpetitions and medals, what I do care about is what my fellow modelers think of my work. And not the politically appointed elitist's opinions.

I’ve seen and heard horror stories about judging, it’s incredible that these incidences are ignored and allowed to happen over and over again, I’ve heard judges whisper, ” I DON’T LIKE THIS GUY, LETS GO TO THE NEXT DISPLAY”
one of these judges is # 1 on the Red Lancer's dead beat list.

My advice is to have fun, always be willing to advise and to accept advice.


Cheers

Roc.

 

[gary]

Very interesting thread you've started Robin. I'll start in answering your question with one of my one. Is it possible to give accurate advice of any sort based on what you see on the monitor?

Now if you're using a color calibrated monitor, and the pic you're looking at was also created on a color calibrated monitor, then any advice offered will be, to a greater or lesser extent, valid. If not, then what you're seeing won't be an accurate representation of the figure... it can't be. And any advice that's offered, will be effected by the misperceptions of what you're seeing on the monitor... or even the program you happen to be using. The Windows pic viewer will normally show one set of color ranges, while Adobe could easily show a completely different set.

As for advice proper, or if you will... criticism, well now... I guess it depends on a couple of things. Whether the advice will help one to get medals, or whether it will help one grow in one's abilities as a painter.

I'm sure there are some of us who feel they don't need any advice, or constructive criticism, because they keep winning medals and therefore they've got things 'right.' And there's probably some of us who do want to win medals on a consistant basis, and aren't, who are more than willing to follow any advice they get to achieve this end. And then there's some of us, who don't give a rat's a** about competitions or medals and strive for authenticity... and when everything comes out just right, the result is a 'person' in miniature; a living, breathing human who's been caught in a moment of time. Now if that figure is entered, and happens to win something, so much the better. But let's face it, judging results can and do vary from place to place, and we need to acknowledge this... we might might not like it, but it exists nonetheless.

I think any time we put a figure out for public consumption, it's a tacit agreement to really consider any criticisms one gets. And I suspect, more often than not, the criticisms are legitimate ones: the vagaries of monitor color settings notwithstanding. It astounds me when I think of all the little factors that come into play when we paint a figure. I'd think that virtually any bit of advice or critique is taking note of a factor that we may have overlooked... or need to refine. Most times, it's given on a positive honest note, and we at least owe the person the decency of thinking over the advice given, and not just brushing it off.

Gary

 

[michelange]

Robin, very interesting topic, because he allows to see the difficulties giving an advice and difficulties accepting it..
When a person made its maximum to paint or sculpture a figure, she often expects compliments. When it is the case all it’s OK, if it is the opposite, she does not still accept them. Sometimes, she thinks that the judgment is severe, that the other one knows it nothing, or in a competition that the judge favored such the other who is less good, but which are of the same club, either is going to think height of the other false things.
For my part, I have make only 2 competitions. The first one where I obtained nothing in the beginner category, and the second where I had a certificate of merit. In November I am going to contribute (compete?) in Sèvres in the average category "confirmed" and presenting my centurion and the beast if he is ended.
Why to participate in a competition??? Because I shall want to be judged by my peers in my just value, no more and no less !! Know what I have to make progress, but without losing my style. I do not want to paint to please, I want that my work pleases because it is made a success, it is all the difference. The judges can see closely my work, without the errors that an monitor can look as says it Gary.
When I shall think I cannot any more progress, I shall stop the competitions, not because I shall not win, but because I shall know my true level, and because I cannot progress any more, I shall become simple visitor.
Just my two cents.
By hoping to be understandable.
Bruno

 

[Robin]

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies, to tidy up a couple of points, I used Euro as an example not for it to be used as a yardstick, we often only see other modellers at shows and this is the best place to get "advice".

Digital Images raised by Gary, well I heard that mentioned at Euro when one or two people I spoke to said that they had expected alot more from some figures viewed here and then disappointed after offering so much, are some images altered.


I for one would just like the truth, if it needs work I wanna know, believe you me I would rather you be cruel to be kind than try and save my feelings, those of you who know me will know I am a straight talker and I like it staright back.

Not at least considering the advice is the crime here I think.

Most of the posts tell of Constructive criticism delivered in a proper manner though one or two people can be abrasive.

Thanks for the interesting replies guys.

Robin

 

[slaj]

Rob , I know you mentioned Euro as an example . My feelings towards this particular show are not necessarily those of others. I do apologize if by any way I hurt somebody's feelings

Stephen Mallia