Busts

[Robin]

Hi all

I was at a show yesterday and had an interseting conversation about competitions and the rules about busts, the gent I spoke to said he had a bust disqualified from a class because it wasn't a bust in the classical sense, just a head and small body, it was a bonaparte bust half body almost.

The judfe disqualified it, what I would like to know is what you guys think constitutes a bust, I mean companies like ourselves market these part figures, should they be allowed to compete with the classical bust or the full figure or maybe a class of thier own?

We also talked that now the hobby is getting much more international should thier be a national standard for classes or maybe a national governing body for the hobby tahat lays down rules and criteria for competition classes.


lookig forward to the replies

Robin

 

[John Long]

The Open system that's used in Chicago, and most other US figure shows has no such distinction. A figure is either "Painters" where the paint job is the main criteria judged, or "Open", where sculpting, & painting are judged. Vignettes, and dioramas are usually judged in the "Open". Why a judge would choose to remove something from a category based on that is beyond me.

On the subject of what is a bust; In my eyes, these half figures qualify as busts. Although not the classical bust, the emphasis is still on the head and shoulders.

 

[gordy]

Interesting.. the line is blurring, there are some "partials" that are more than busts (arm with a weapon, or complete down to naval)

an international consortium... even more interesting!

 

[thegoodsgt]

If I were asked to distinguish between busts and full-figures, I'd put the cut-off at the waist. I can't imagine there are many (if any) "busts" that include any portion of the legs.

Robin, was the show an IPMS contest?

 

[frank h]

Hi Robin
On the subject of when is a bust not a bust, if a judge is going to get
picky then maybe the category could be divided into busts ie head and
shoulders and animated busts which have been unkindly referred to as
half figures

As far as judging goes, laid down criteria is long over due.

Frank

 

[Robin]

Actually believe it or not BMSS (British Model Soldier Society) show, I would have been happier were it IPMS if that makes sense. I can't tell one tank from another but those guys ar wicked at em whereas figures well they must feel the samenot knowing what is good or bad.

Robin

 

[Lou Masses]

Everything John Said is true. The Open system judges work on it's accomplishment and not by class. So it's either judged on painting or on sculpting and painting. You won't see a "Class 32A-Modern Squatting Soldiers at Rest" category or anything like that. The only time I've ever seen a judge do anything with regards to moving a figure is to find the owner and ask them if they wanted to take it from "General" to "Advanced" because they felt the work to be that good.

That being said, there was (and I suppose, still is) an "International Consorium". The "World Expo" is put together by the "World Model Soldier Federation" (I think that's the name) which is comprised of member clubs from throughout the world. Although technically they cannot impose judging rules per se (I believe the French and Italian events used "local rules"), they offer a guideline at least.

I don't know which works best, although obviously I like the Open system because that's what I've worked with for years. But as these really aren't "competitions" per se, there is no need for further classes since there could be 40 medals in each class for example. Although I've never been, I believe Euro is more competitive than American Shows in terms of how many medals are awarded.

 

[Robin]

Hi lou

I wasn't saying that we need classes defined to that extent just that may be what constitutes a bust and a foot figure etc. then at least we as competitors would have some recourse if a judge does say its disqualified, it shouldn't be just because his or her idea of something is different to the sculptors.

I also do not concur with Euro being more competitive than anywhere else, amybe people like to get a medal at Euro because of what it is and the people who attend.

All I see the Expo as is an international show not as a governing body.

Robin

 

[johnbrewer]

What a interesting topic. My opinions are that a bust can be a product down to the bottom of the ribcage , with arm or arms. I am not keen on half figures (but I do like Gordy's word of "partials"), but they are still busts in my view as they ain't got no legs. Perhaps the non bust judgement comes from the half figures used by the armour modellers?. I would have loved to have spoken to the judge in question or read his response here, so that he could give his full reasons and grounds for the disqualification. It may just have been that he does not like them. Which for me is not a sound judging reason.

I am now stepping off my soap box.

Speaking of boxes did you get one in the post today Robin? and what did you think of the grass I sent?.

 

[Robin]

I got the box I am told, its at home and I am still in cyberland at work

The grass was great and I am going to use it on a figure as soon as I figure out which one, though I do think an article for here would be good. I think alot of people would find it usefull.


In my experience Judges are helpful people I have spoken to lots and got all sorts of help and tips



Robin

 

[Guy]

I guess everyone would have their own criteria for what is a bust and what is not. I have looked through many art sculpting books from the old masters and I see alot of varying degrees of busts. Most are from the mid chest to the top of the head / helmet but a few have been down to the waist. I would of like to have heard the judge's explanation too. To me even a partial would fall into the "Bust" category since he has no shoes and there is no groundwork.

btw John.......just what kind of "grass" did you send....hmmmm

guy

 

[Lou Masses]

Robin,

I know you didn't mean that classes are needed. I've just seen them in the Euro books. Always found them a bit odd, but as it is more of a competition I guess they would be needed -otherwise they might only be able to give out 2 gold medals. In what I know about Euro from reading and from people who have judged there, I have heard it is in fact more competitive than American shows. Not sure about the "Who is there" aspect so much anymore, it used to be that's where all of the world's best known painters went but St Vincent's and MFCA are beginning to attract more and more well known names. To me a medal is a medal-whether it's from Los Angeles, Rome, London or Madrid- it's my peers acknowledging my efforts-to me that's what counts.

The WMSF isn't really a governing body-although it's probably a step in that direction. It's probably the closest to aligning an international body of organizations under one group. It is in a way, sort of like the UN of the figure painting world- everyone has their vote, but no rules can really be imposed.


Lou

 

[thegoodsgt]

Lou, I have to disagree. "A medal is a medal" no matter the contest ignores the fact that some shows, notably Euro, are by reputation more competitive than others. You could even argue that a medal earned at Euro has more value than one earned at the World Expo!

 

[Lou Masses]

Please note that I said "To Me", not to you or to anyone else. It is what they mean to me. I am not saying you or anyone else should value them the same.

I am not disagreeing or even discussing their "value".

 

[johnbrewer]

Guy, it was special grass that I have prepared for Robin .

I use it for bases, it is made using cape feathers used for fly tying, I think it looks quite nice. I will post a pic so you can have a look.