Critique, accuracy issues and you

[Einion]

Didn't want to divert the Sneak preview of upcoming release thread with this so I thought I'd start a new one. This is in some ways further to some of the issues raised in this old thread:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20717

I'm not starting this to rake coals onto the fire and bottom line is Gordy's opinion on this kind of thing is the only one that matters on the site - we have no right to free speech other than what is granted to us by the people who run a venue.

So in hopes this is okay with Gordy; regarding the general principles surrounding critique, criticism and posting etiquette, I've been involved in online discussion fora for nearly 10 years now and I think it's better to hash things out in the open than to let them smoulder away in the background. So here's my take on things.

I comment little on sculpted or painted work on this site because I don't often know what level of critique would be appreciated; some people want to hear comments, good and bad, some only want a pat on the back. The fact that the former type of poster is more likely to progress, and faster, is something that should be more widely recognised.

I come from the school of thought where the pointing out of flaws is of benefit to the recipient. Now more often than not my urge to leave a comment would be stirred when I see something done poorly on a commercial figure, but still I usually hold myself back because I don't want to be that guy.

Luckily there's a good example from just recently in the Andrea trench scene. I would have been the first commenter if I'd wanted to and I'd have been quick to make some negative comment about the hand of the officer mounting the ladder because it's so damned obvious that something is wrong there. Now since this was posted 'anonymously' we're free to make sport of the this kind of thing. If it were posted here by the sculptor of the piece then the whole tone of posts would obviously be different, but should we shy away from commenting on the hand? I think it's equally obvious that the answer should be no.

Some things are going to be interpretations, matters of personal style - the shape, number of and profile of creases in clothing - and while that is up to each sculptor up to a point tight, sharp-edged creases in a heavy woollen garment shouldn't pass by without notice. Similarly smooth, flowing drapery on something made of linen in the original should raise an eyebrow; and what's wrong with mentioning it in such a case? Maybe the sculptor didn't know the material, was working from plan drawings so there were no clues as to how it might look? Bad news or not they're better off in the long run finding out that something doesn't look right.

On the other hand some things are going to be right/wrong issues. If one intends to portray a uniform or kit item then the size of certain parts of it, the number of buttons, the shape or pattern of some parts may be fixed for a given subject or scale. Yes there is a danger of going too far down this road and becoming the dreaded rivet counter, but I know AFV modellers that would want to know exactly that kind of info if they got it wrong!

Einion

 

[Jim Patrick]

Good points Einion. All of them and if you only knew how refreshing it is to see a calm, level headed response. Even if it ultimately began a new thread. Some things to supplement (not replace) what you have stated.

** Disclaimer Time! **

If you are personally offended by what I am about to say, "DON'T". It's not directed at anyone personally.

While I do agree that comments should be given, we should all remember that sometimes these comments, regardless of intent or quantity/ quality, can easily offend others. If you find your comments regularly offend or bring out the worst in a person, maybe it's time for you to do a serious self evaluation of your personality. How long can we as adults walk into a crowded area/ resturant or whatever and piss everyone around us off because we are unsatisfied with something? The same applies here. Maybe even more so without the direct personal contact. Us hobbyist are a queer bunch aren't we? LOL! We spend all day, weeks, hell even months laboring over something and we make every honest attempt to get it right (sounds like me and my painting!) just to proudly show it off only to be shot down. Regardless of how well intended these comments are, they are bound to ruffle feathers. I think we "critique-ers" should remember this.

If we here on these "hobby" (seems most times they aren't) forums have a leg up on another individual....hell, I'll put it simple terms. Us simple people like things simple! If I know "Bob" is a thief and I have the proof, I mean I have him dead to rights, then "Bob" pisses me off somewhere for something and I call a spade a spade, then who is in the right? What purpose has been served? To what end has my spade calling gotten me and the surrounding hobbyist? Nothing, Nadda, zilch, zero. It has only brought me down to "Bob's" level. Name calling, mud slinging in the open for the public to see serves no purpose what-so-ever. In fact, just the opposite may be true. It may detract from the original intent of the entire post. Sure, an individual can get SICK of the constant sniping and not so well hidden attacks. But after it's off your chest and in the open, what has it truly gotten you? Take it to a private forum. Some people here can attest to just how pissy and trivial I can be in private, but everyone can't. Just remember to take the less traveled high road. Damn, if it were so easy, everyone would take it. They can't so they don't. Just because "Bob" takes the easy route doesn't give me the right. In fact, people will hold you in a higher esteem if you do. It's not the glorious thing and you rarely, if ever, get a pat on the back for it. In Fa............

Screw it, Iv'e preeched enough. These are just two things that CONSTANTLY appear here. Lord only knows how sick I am of it.

Jim Patrick

 

[Roy]

Hi Einion...long time no see mate..just to add my thoughts for what they are worth.

On the critique of other peoples work, especially sculptors, as my knowledge is a little behind when it comes to painting. I would only comment on their work if I had something useful to add, maybe a little advice or some tip or technique or whatever. Although sometimes I will begin to compile a post and no matter how hard I try, I just can't make it read 'right' if you know what I mean...it may include some useful advice for the intended recipient, but somehow when I re-read it..I just can't get it to sound correct, so I end up not actually posting it which is a shame...I'll have to work on that.

Overall I regard the planet as a very useful collection of hobbyists and professionals that have an immense collective enthusiasm (which is infectious) for figures of all kinds. There exists such a potential for fine and specific critique that it's a shame it cannot be more easily used to benefit all of us, and I wholly understand the difficulty that some members would have getting their honest thoughts into words, it's not an easy task for some of us, me included.
If I post some 'in-progress' work, I usually state that it is such, and ask for any comments and critique, and I expect most of it to be as honest as possible. It's of great advantage to have the members here offer a fresh look at your work and this has helped me a great deal in the past on many occasions. And it should always be remembered that critique takes time to compile into a readable post and should appreciate this element too.

Einion, when you wrote " I comment little on sculpted or painted work on this site because I don't often know what level of critique would be appreciated" I think this is really very close to the heart of the matter, because if a 'professional' sculptor asks for critique, I would assume that they would desire a very honest opinion of their work from anyone who feels they can offer it, as long as such critique is set forward in a constructive way it should prove helpful in one way or another.

On the other hand, critique for a modeller who is 'learning' to sculpt and enjoying the hobby for what it is, should perhaps be tuned as much as possible to what we know of that persons capabilities and aims, and be as encouraging as possible but also include any advice that could help.this I think is the hard part as it involves knowing a little about the modellers progress and abilities at least.

It would help greatly (as has been done before but is sometimes overlooked) if the member would perhaps make their needs known regarding honest and constructive criticism..then at least we would know where we stand...sort of.

Hope some if this makes sense....it's a great thread.

All the best...Roy.

 

[bonehead]

Why can't we all just get along???

Some people have opinions. Some people don't like to be criticized. Bummer dude! But let's not make a big issue of it.

I have plenty of opinions. I am a harsh critic. That is just who I am. Because I am aware that many people are sensitive, I usually keep my opinion to myself.

But occasionally, the cat gets out of the bag! Does this make me an insensitve meany? Nope! That just makes me a hyper-critical windbag with a slight impulse control problem. (twitch, twitch)

Sorry, folks. We are all just human. Sometimes wires get crossed. If we are all grown up about it, that should not be a problem. Dig?

In the meantime, I am chuggin a little Pepto for my verbal incontinence. Glug, glug....... URK!!

Mike

 

[flart1943]

Hi Einion
Great talking point. We must remember that modellers do not paint or sculpt bad figures on purpose but work to the best of their ability, therefore any criticism, if not constructive, is ether useless or damaging.
Pete

 

[Dani A.]

Some ideas

Hi,

I think it is a good idea of Einion to take some worthy points raised in the other thread and bringing them here, to a clean slate so to say.

Some people post their work because they want really to receive an appraisal, both positive and negative. Others do not really want other than positive comments. Sometimes this is not stated, and constructive critiques are made in good faith, but they are still ill received.

Of course, anyway, the manner the critique is voiced can influence a great deal how it will be received; even if genuinely asked for, too raw or caustic an opinion will probably offend. So, manners are important. Bad manners will not invalidate a solid critique, but can cause bad feelings.

(Naturally, what some people can see as an abusing opinion, others will see as a perfectly correct one. For some, just mentioning a defect or inaccuracy, even if this is exquisitely worded, well founded and objective, can be seen as abusing).

On the other hand, it is too often seen how people casually and carelessly make critiques without really being knowledgeable about what they are talking about - these are specially harmful if formulated with an impression of actual knowledge. This is not necessarily because of bad faith, it can (in fact, usually it is) because many people do not actually comprehend how important is for the critique to be informed. Of course, often, probably the most of times, these are GOOD critiques, NOT bad, but are equally uninformed (or clearly too subjective) and, to my eyes, of dubious value, apart from the pat-on-the-back effect.

As a last thought, I would draw a clear line between works presented by hobbyists and those presented in relation to commercial interests.

I agree the former can claim for a right NOT to be critiqued, or even ask just for positive feedback - if it is their wish, it should be respected. This would avoid confusion on the question of the actual intention of that particular modeller when showing his works.

... BUT commercially related products are a different animal altogether, specially if posted by the interested party itself to benefit from a little advertisement (which is absolutely acceptable). Potential customers are as entitled to give their opinions, positive or negative, as the sellers are to publicize and promote them. Two sides of the coin, as has been said.

Enough said, at least for the moment... ;-)

Dani

 

[Dani A.]

Two examples

On a lighter mood, I will mention a couple of examples from my experience, as regards uninformed critiques.

I had once a little discussion about some point of detail, related to a commercial figure's critique. The other person put forward a certain book as a support for his assertions. I was mystified- I had that very book, and it supported MY assertions. When I mentioned this fact, the other person nonchalantly admitted he could not, in fact, read the language the book was written in! And even then, he considered himself perfectly able to make apparently sensible contributions in good faith.

I knew of a person often making what appeared to be knowledgeable critiques - which often challenged established and respected sources. Unfortunately, when invited to support his intringuing statements, he always happened not to have his source at hand, or his scanner was broken, or whatever - he also promised he would produce it ASAP; but the substantiated info would never appear. Good faith is harder to find here.

These may be extreme examples of disinformed critiques, but they do happen. Ill-advised critiques can mislead or harm other people, even if made in good faith.

(I must say, sometimes, or better said, to some people, just POLITELY ASKING another person to mention his sources, is seen as abusing; as can be producing sound and substantiated information that casts doubts, or proves wrong, an earlier contribution. We are threading delicate ground here...)

Regards,

Dani

 

[Anders Heintz]

Excellent post Dani!

I think you hit the nail good when you said its about how the critique it is written. If done right you can tell someone to pi$$ off and have them walk away with a smile ! Ofcourse, we also dont have the benefit to see the body language behind the posts, although most of the posters here are 'veteran' online boarders and understand this.

I think what it really boils down to is the person who is asking for critique and his or her mind set. Basically there are three types of posters, those who want to learn and become a better figurist, who absorb everything, analyse it and put it to use on the current project or future projects. We have those who just do it for fun and want to share their work, who takes the comments well, but will progress at their own pace. And lastly we have the ones who think they allready know it all, to whom it is useless to say anything as whatever is said is wrong and not true to their ears.

Ofcourse, we all have parts of us in each category so its not exactly a clear cut line.

You may disagree with my 'poster classifications' but from my experience it plays a huge role in how the poster takes critisism even if asked for.

The best bet if you have suggestions on a particular post that doesnt specifically ask for critique is to ask the person in question if they want some suggestions, and then explain what you think. The great thing is that every reader of a post with constructive critisism will learn from it with their own projects.

 

[quang]

An important topic. Thanks, Einion for initiating it.

While I agree on the whole with what has been posted, I feel some points need to be clarified.

1 – 'Posting' equals 'response', want it or not.
There's no such thing as 'unrequited' critique. Once you post something on an internet forum, you get a response (even a lack of response is a response in itself). This is the main and only reason one posts.

2 – There's no way to control the response.
Problems arise when the poster is not prepared to accept EVERY kind of response (especially the ones he calls 'negative'). Some try to 'filter' the response by stating that they don't want any comment or that it should be done by private mail alone. This special stance borders on the surreal (see point 1) and defeats the very purpose of internet forums where people gather to discuss things IN PUBLIC.

Imagine an individual standing on his soap box at the market place and proclaiming to the public: "Listen, folks, I've something to show you but I don't want any comment. Everybody shuts up but if you have something really special to say, send me a letter.". Everyone can see the ridicule of such a stance.

3 – Constructive critique. What's that?
A constructive critique is not a 'good' nor a 'bad' critique. It's a comment that would help the recipient to progress.

It can be done by pointing out the strong (positive) points of his works and also the weaker aspects which he can improve on.

A critique is not helpful unless it's documented. Saying "It's super" or "It's terrible" won't help anybody.

But to say "I like your figure because of this and that. However if you do this and that, you'll get a better figure", now THAT is helpful.

These are simple truths to me (and some others). Of course, they are open to debate. This is what this forum is for, innit?

Cheers,
Quang

 

[Anders Heintz]

Hola Quang,

Some excellent points, I agree with you on all points except the first.

There's no such thing as 'unrequited' critique. Once you post something on an internet forum, you get a response (even a lack of response is a response in itself). This is the main and only reason one posts.

Sure there is, if the poster doesn't say something like "What you think?", "Feel free to Comment", "Please Critique" or something in that line, it should be asumed as not wanting the piece critiqued.

I dont think a response in it self should be labled as a critique. You can respond to a piece without critiquing it, although I guess you can make the case that any post is a critique, i.e "I like the figure, especially the hat..." in effect you just critiqued it stating that the hat was well done. Ofcourse the exceptions is the SUPER BEST JOB AWESOMEEST FIGURE EVER type of posts which does absolutely nothing except raises post count and inflates egos.

 

[diamond cutter]

re: critics

I think that if a piece of work is entered into the public domain, it is bound to attract critical comments. Although a certain few may, for one reason or another be of a nasty type, most of us will endevour to be constructive with it. I think it's a useful learning tool.
I also think that to give praise and compliments for an exceptional piece of work is a good thing too. It's just manners, I think!
I personaly don't mind recieving critisism, as long as it is of the constructive kind. The other kind is best just ignored!
It's an interesting debate!!

 

[marcellin de marbot]

Hi to all,
After the fire battle on gen.Lee, this is a very interesting post. Before all, I think it's a right occasion for myself to explain once more my thinking, because I'm sure having done often the impression I am an hard critical and some member of the Forum can think I want to make so for enjoiment, or for personal interest (Ciao Stefano). I want to say that in all my posts I never criticized the quality of a painting, or a sculpting, I don't believe to be qualified for this. I'm not a sculptor, I am not a good professional painter, I don't work for any figure's producer (the historical notices I give are not payed by anyone), I enjoy only in drawing nap uniforms, that's my passion, as you had surely understood. What am i trying to make with my posts? I wish only push all modelers to spend a bit of their work on historical research when they make historical figures, as they spend lot of time to study the best colours to be used, the zenital light, the anatomy, the light of the pics sometimes. I think if anyone is making an historical figure, he must respect History. If anyone does not want be obliged within rules, I think perhaps it's better make fantasy figures. But this is my point of wiew, obviously. Referring to the right of make criticism, I think that when a figure is exposed on a Forum, anyone has to expect the comments of the members, favourable or critical, at the condition they are in good faith, that they are made for helping the artist, not only a personnel attack or an attempt to destroy anyone. It's possible that money has an heavy role in this matter. When a sculptor,or a painter, makes figures for job, he feels every criticism as a great danger for his work and his reliability, so he will be ready to react angry. On the contrary, if the artist paints, or sculpts, only for enyoiment, is more disposed to accept a criticism, in good faith, it will be considered an useful help to improve his creations. Well, to end this romance, I want to say I am 58 years aged, I can be a father for many of you, I put many images at disposal of everyone here, and I wll continue to say my opinion about historical matters on the napoleonic uniforms (and not only these) and to give my help on notices to anyone (Stefano B. included)
Best regards to all
M

 

[Wlas]

Thanks Einion for starting this thread. I haven't had an opportunity to 'vent' in quite awhile.
Though this site has provided the miniaturist with a great deal of support in a variety of forms I've noticed the tendency to 'tread softly' when it comes to criticism of work shown as if thin-skin egos were something not to be violated.
I, for one, could not care less about those egos.
I've been around long enough to witness converted toy soldiers and the painting of DesFontaines, to the conversion work of Joe Keenan and brush talent of Henri Lion, through the innovative hands of Shep Paine ( where would we be today without the giant steps he took for us? ) to the highly skilled painters and sculpters that fill the ranks today.
I've also been around long enough to see skills diminish as once talented practioners rest on their laurels instead of continuing to advance. For some reason I find this type most sensitive to criticism ( as if the work done before exonerates them from criticism of their newer and more inferior work ).
The bottom line here in this place is that there is too much talent, knowledge and information that MUST be placed in these forums. Criticism in our field is not as destructive as silence. Puppies learn new tricks from their masters and so do old dogs ( like myself ) here in this great site. When skilled minds catch faults in the work shown and remain silent we all end up the lesser for it. If someone becomes angry and offended because these things are pointed out in their work...well that is their problem. I probably wouldn't care to know him in the first place.
All of you keep stoking the fire. It keeps me warm.

 

[quang]

Sure there is, if the poster doesn't say something like "What you think?", "Feel free to Comment", "Please Critique" or something in that line, it should be asumed as not wanting the piece critiqued.

Anyone who posts on the internet is asking for some kind of response, verbal (like when you participate in a forum) or silent (like when you look at a catalogue on line).

Therefore it's perfectly legitimate and normal to respond to a post in an internet forum without waiting for the poster's permission to do so. It's what a forum is for.

On the other hand, if an artist wants to show his work and is not sure of what kind of feedback he'll receive, he'd take the safe route and post it on his own site or blog but NOT on a forum.

Now I REALLY would like to meet someone who tells me "Here's my work. You can look at it but please DO NOT comment nor criticize. Thank you!". Someone like Woody Allen?

HTH
Quang

 

[Dan Morton]

Two centavos

I'm a benefactor of the critique process on this and Timelines forum. Altho I'm an older guy (57), I've only been sculpting a short time by comparison to many of you and have (I hope) made improvements over the few years because of the constructive critique provided by many of you.

Not so long ago, I suggested that PF consider doing what Timelines has done with the critique process. Split up all posts into 3 categories, requiring the poster to specify one and only one - Completed work & no critique requested; WIP & no critique requested; and WIP & constructive critique requested. By doing this you at least eliminate the ambiguity of the posting situation. There are still plenty of potential problems with the critique process, some very unpleasant - but there's one that could be controlled on PF.

All the best,
Dan

 

[Anonymous1]

To Enion and others

Thanks for a very signifigant tread. The following shal not be taken as a “final word“ on anything, just my personal observations, not on this forum, but on the hobby as general through almost 40 years.
In my world, this tread is a key question, since the internet and the publication of work beeing shown in a broader forum.
Over the years I have been doing first round figures, and now solely flat figures, I have at competitions and in societys, heard so many arrogant and selfpromoting comments (and after seeing the work they did themselves), I have concluded, that somewhere along the line, some societys, and members were not the cosy and relaxed serious crowd, that I was looking for. I'm now only a member of some sites, like this, and the British Flat Figure society.
First of all, showing work here is certainly the ultimate test. Here we must consider that we are not all “Icons“ in this hobby, some do better things than others, and thats the way it is, a good measure would be to ask ourselves, what comments would make us offended?? and act accordingly, and then take a dammed good look at our own figures, and then say to ourselves, are we in a position, that justifies any critical comments. Happily we all see the world in a different light, and whats good for one, dosent nescesarrily fit the bill for others. I have at competitions preferred figures that took bronze or didn't even win, but again, remember that judges also, as we are, generally ruled by personal preferences.
Believe it or not, theres actually some kind of “fashion“*in our hobby too, a certain figure beeing shown at shows x 30, in a certain style of painting, thats the way it is, or rather has become, I do however welcome the new “trend“ where some people try to sculp their own figures, this must indeed be the “ultimate test“ and need every encouragement and support, they are actually more brave than the ones showing commercially painted figures, and I do hope they will receive the proper credit for their efforts, we cannot all do the perfect sculpt the first time, we all have to start somewhere.
We are all part of a wonderfull hobby, with better figures all the time, lets act civil and polite, the people showing off their work deserves this.
Regarding newcomers in this hobby, they do deserve some kind of “positive critic“ they can then choose whats right for them, or works for them, we were all there, in the beginning.
Kindest regards
Kjeld Buchholtz