Illegal Copies of figures ...

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Major_Goose

A Fixture
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
5,267
Location
Athens - Greece
Well thats an issue that may have raised up again before...but lately there is an uprise in guys that sell illegal copies in resin from nice figures from well respected companies .

Last incident that is crying out for accusation is guys selling copies of Andrea Jula's masterpiece, Pegaso 90 -038 , Crusader . The figure that we all admired and want to paint .

I will not retalk on copyright issues and the likes. I will say that these gays have gone way too much out of the line. So much that in my recent visit in Athens, as iwas drinking coffee in Athens Miniatures shop, a guy entered trying to convince the owner to get resin copies (we call them monkeys in Greece) and sell them through the shop that he legally holds !!!

The owner of course denied and lift the telephone to call police. Then the guy dissapeared.

The guys have gone pretty far, that they appear in internet selling them ,and also in some countries in Hobby Shows .


One think that many poeple doesnt understand is that , figure companies, or at least (80%) of them are small projects of 1-2-3-4 people that have the talent to sculpt ,paint and reproduce small amounts of their artistic and very hard to do work .

If some one sells 1000 copies of a fake music cd that will sell normally with the original 300.000 pieces we talk for a damage of 0.33%

If some one sells 50 figures copies of a new kit that will be casted from the company in 250 or 300 pieces (many companies do that as they can afford huge numbers and the market is not that big) we talk for a damage of maybe more than 20% , and thats way more of the companies profit.

Which if is done for every figure the companie must shutdown.

The problem is this : The music cd;s for example are bought from every human posibble from a 15 years kid till a 70 years grannie. But figures , both legal, and illegal , are bought from MODELLERS. From guys that know how to build and paint them . From People that demand from the companies everymonth new and better figures , and more themes , and more and more...... So whats the love you have in the hobby? toget cheaper copies of the figure, that are badly recasted and they cannot compare tothe original ,and also buy stolen goods (the artists work) and use them .

So its really crazy to say that you adore and support this hobby and at the same time try to make the grave by buying fake copies.

I am not toplay the companies lawyer by no means , but seeing that almost all people that are involved in the figure companies are nice artists with sensitivity and creativity , and also having seen my personal work (textwritting) copied illegaly and exploited , i felt that i was allowed to express my thoughts, here and want to see possibly other, different and alternative thoughts on this chapter of our Hobby .

I have been offered and proposed many times totake illegal figures ,and i always resisted strongly and never had done this . Knowing some of the finest people inthe hobby lately , and original creators ,i am decided togive a bad time tothe guy that will nexttry tosellme a fake one .

Thanks for your patience

Costas
 
I'm with you Kosta!This is a great damage to our hobby.We can buy less figures if our budget is small.And of course the quality of these copies are extremely bad.We all can buy an original miniature if we really want it!
 
Well even I never encountered any similar situations, I totally believe that Costas is 100% right. I will also give a bad time to the person who will try to sell me a fake copy of a figure. It's also a shame for any of us that is getting his figures by that way.

Xenofon
 
I would never knowingly buy a copied piece, even on Ebay I only buy from reputable suppliers. If these people can be traced then they should be reported to the prosecuted.
 
Costas, i agree and support you 100%. Last year I contacted Roger Saunders at Hornet/Wolf miniatures to make him aware of what I considered were pirated copies of his head. It resulted in ebay pulling the auction. I do not believe that this type of practice can be prevented or stopped entirely, but we can stand behind the manufacturers and help protect their livlihood from these criminals.

A lot of times this stuff is sold cheaply which makes the temptation to buy that much greater. Guys, just don't do it. Go the other route and rat the person(s) out that are doing it. If you see it, bring it to the original maker's attention and let them take it from there.~Gary
 
My only thought would be to make sure no one buys copies from these fraudulent "manufacturers" (Gary beat me to the puch, I agree with him 100%). With out any business, they would be forced to quit, just as a legitimate manufacturer would. I have recently switched from predominently building models, to doing strictly (almost) figures. Figure kits are expensive compared to plastic models! I would rather save my hard earned pennys and buy a few legit pieces, than give my money to these thieves for a bunch of fakes. Just don't buy from them, period.

Jay H.
OKC
 
Costas my friend,
I also met the replica of Andrea's Templar figure on ebay and i believe this is really a shame...and i also posted this to Armorama .so glad to see i am not the only one who tries to be sensitive on that... i am with you on that forever and i will try to take attention to that in all websites.

bestest regards
 
Costas,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I agree with all that you and the others have said above: don't buy illegal copies; and report illegal copies that you find to the owner.

The good thing about out community being somewhat small is that (hopefully) if we all do this, the crooks may soon move on to other things.
 
Dear Costas:

These people that do these things are known as recasters. They have invaded the garage kit hobby and have put some small companies out of business. The garage kit hobby mainly has figures of movie characters and characters from mythology. These are small operations many operate out of their homes and don't cast thousands of kits. The recasters get a casting and then proceed to recast a copy of their own. The ones to suffer are the people who buy the recasting, which is not very good at all, and sadly the artists that created the piece to begin with. These people are a plague to say the least. They cash in on someone else's work. They are thieves and greedy cheaters only looking to make a fast buck. I hope everyone sees them for what they are before they really damage our hobby.

Mike Massaro
 
Costas,

I'am totally on your side. I never had the opportunity the buy a duplicate. When i should met a guy like that i should tell him that i 'am interest in, but i wanna consider his offer for a time. Then i will ask for a little note with name and adress and the price of the figure and where i can buy it for that price.
Then leaving the guy along saying that i will contact him soon.
Then i should go to the nearest police station and do an declaration off plagiarism, and stealing of a concept.
I think here in the Netherlands they put him away for some years.

marc
 
Thats i am worried about .
People that buy these things are painters and hobbyists just like us . But i dont think they have the sensitivity that almost all people have in here, since they destroy their own hobby ..unfortunately

To keep you more clearly informed i will transfer here the response on similiar thread from Armorama, taht was given from Officila PEGASO - Luca Marchetti
talking back to a member, on the issuue if its right to get stolen copies becauseyouthink that originals are overpiced



It is very easy to do calculation in the pocket of other people...right?
You are not the FIRST...you'll not be the LEAST.

I answerd to the same calculations (your calculations) several years ago in another American Forum.
Peple didn't trust me.

Now I'll show you again the costs to produce one 54mm "Elite Series" figure ok?
(I'll put you only the minimum costs)

Historician (researches): minimum 150 euros
Sculptor= minimum 780 euros
Painter= minimum 180 euros
Caster= 3 euros
Box = 1,50 euros
Various costs (salaryies, electricity, phone, advertisings...tc...etc...) = 6% = 1.59 euros

Think that we cast (as first order) 400 figures.

Costs:
150 : 400 = 0.375
780 : 400 = 1.95
180 : 400 = 0.45
cast = 3.00
Box = 1.50
Various = 1.59

Total = 8.865 Euros for ONE figure

Try to consider that we have figures that sell 400-500 during one year and other figure (successfull figures) that sell no more than 800-900 during one year.

Distributors (the 80% of our market) don't accept a discount being less than 59%.
It means we sell a 54mm "Elite Series" to a Distributor at 10.87 euros.

It means we get 2.004 on EACH figure.
It means that, speking about a succesfull model, at the end of ONE YEARr we get a net incoming of no more than 1803 euros. Speaking about an unsuccesfull figure we don't get more than 1082 euros net incoming.

These are official dates of Pegaso. Anyone can come here in Italy to give a look at ouur Administrative Books!
Pegaso is an Official Public Society...Srl in Italian fiscal language.

As least information I tell you that we sell to shops (14% of our market..the rest is directly to Modelers) at 50% discount.
It means that we sell to shops at 13.25 euros and they sell you at 26.50 euros.

BOYS...!!!! It is evident to me that the most of you have a wrong idea about how many money Producers get by you!
The most of Modelers are convinced that Producers sell THOUSANDS of figures for each new code we produce...
Well, let me to tell you something....YOU ARE WRONG!
We sell HUNDREDS not THOUSANDS of figures....ok?

The most sold figures of Pegaso in 13 years are:
90-004 = 3174 figures
75-009 = 2976 figures

At the moment, the nearest figure is the 54-025 (1995 year) that reached 1257 figures sold.

The last (I will not mention it as a form of respect for the sculptor) didn't reach the 124 number in 10 years!

Succesfull figures are no more than the 12% of our catalogue.
Normal figures are no more than the 57% of our catalogue.
Unsuccesfull figures are the rest.

Many Friends of mine told me several times: don't show to Modelers your calculations...they will never trust you!

Well....I decided for the second time to show you what is it the reality of a successfull Historical Figures producer (and Pegaso is leading the market!).

Now you may TRUST me or not....this is your own choice.

About E-Bay:

I contacted them SEVERAL times.
They NEVER answered me.
I call them a LEGALIZED MAFIA OF ILLEGAL ACTS!

They don't care about small companies (I understand them...we have not the sufficent power!).
Furthermore they give to people the possibility to sell being anonimous......so we cannot attack such peple.

The result?
CRIMINALS use E-Bay.
E-Bay get a lot of money.
We can do NOTHING!

Trust me or not BUT...THIS S THE TRUTH!
I'll not write more about the argument.

Luca Marchetti (in love with Historical Figures)



Talking on the numbers and percentages he gives , i have sen the printouts of his company computer , in Pegaso Headquarters in Sienna , so i can guarantee that theyre totally accurate and honest .
 
Costas,

If you are in contact again with Luca Marchetti tell him that i love his figures he is producing and that i will buy them, even they are € 40 for a 54mm.
It's only because they are top... The best you can get for your money i think.

Marc
 
That statement from Luca Marchetti can only show, how fustrated a producer is, simply because the problem gets bigger and bigger. Unfortunatelly for the companies not all the modellers are like us here, that are against piracy. So since there will be people buying those illegal copies there will be more recasters.
We can only keep our policy and also protest whenever we can.

Xenofon
 
I thought that I would chime up here as this subject was also enquired by some people regarding my sales list.
I have also some items on my Grey Army listing quoted as being not originally packaged and naturally everybody enquires before making a purchase (are the figures original...or recasts ??) In my list they are of course originals.
I have (as one can see viewing my saleslist) hundreds of figure kits and at one point I figured that I could save space in the closet when all the kits were more or less packaged the same.In due course some figures were repacked so I could stack them easier,some kits are bought from other modellers at shows e.t.c. and the packaging is damaged so repacking is also a good way and sometimes friends of mine who have figure companies (Frank Miniatures,Sparta Miniatures) sell me their newbies before they even have the packaging done,so here we go again...Repacking in order to protect the figure...So far,so good.

When one starts thinning out the Grey Army , then all of a sudden one is confronted with these questions as to the authenticity of the figures (which I find reassuring,then it shows that the real figure experts care about buying only originals) and we think back to the items which we see on E-Bay e.t.c. and realise what this piracy is doing to the hobby,but as said before by Luca,there is practically nothing we can do to stop it...Except...DONT BUY !!!!!
Here in Germany we have 2 plastic figure shows a year (Elastolin,Timpo e.t.c.) a couple of modelling friends and myself visit these shows also just to see what is being sold and....It would blow you away to see what these guys pirate...Everything 70mm,75mm,80mm on the market today is recast in resin,originally as planned and also blatently converted (Poste Militaire Vlad figure wearing helmet,Macbeth bearheaded,Atilla wearing headgear)I appreciate the fact that the collectors of these Elastolin type figures apparently have no idea that the latest Roman newbie which they have just purchased is originally from Pegaso and cast in whitemetal but when we inform the traders of thisfact,they just smirk and act arrogant with you.They know that they will not be prosecuted for it.
I feel for all those Figure producers out there who are losing profits because of these scumbags...And never forget...sooner or later we will all pay the price,then when the profits drop,the producers crumble and where would we be without the likes of Pegaso and Andrea.

Peter Shaw
 
Hey Guys,

I have to chime in as well, first I have bought several figures from Peter and they are all on the up and up. The second thing is that these crooks are just trying to make a buck. What I would think is that Luca or anyone else could go after them for using his box art work if nothing else. I see the few ebayers who are bidding do not have the best of feedback and one in particular has not paid for 2 items. I am not sure if anyone else saw this but here is a picture of the resin casting on the knight.

Hey how about everyone contacting the seller and ask him a question and see if he can tell us who sculpted the kit for him and who painted the box art for him? ;)

Joe
 

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Originally posted by Joe Hudson@Mar 2 2006, 11:32 AM

Hey how about everyone contacting the seller and ask him a question and see if he can tell us who sculpted the kit for him and who painted the box art for him? ;)

Joe
...and what about contacting some biders,and tell them that they are pirated !!

georges
 
As first I wish to thank all the members of Planet Figure

it seems all of you have understood how much hard is the Illegal Copies "affaire" for Producers.

Your support is VERY PRECIOUS to all of us (I mean Producers).

It is many years I have in mind to publically speak about the argument BUT, you have to know, the most of people (Magazines, other Producers) told me to do not do it.
WHY?
Because openly and publically speaking about Illegal Copiers I would have obtained only one result:
to diffuse the knowledge og Illegal Copies and to push more Modelers to purchase by Illegal Copiers.

Well....finally I decided to OPENLY START the discussion and...BEAUTIFULL SURPRISE!!!!
I'm discovering that the most of Modelers are people having "SENSE OF HONOUR"!

So...THANKS for showing me your LOVE for figures...THIS IS THE BEST SUPPORT to Producers (to ALL producers....not only to Pegaso)

Luca Marchetti
 
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