resin vs. white metal

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OCELOTL

Active Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
27
Hello there. new to the forum, but a huge fan of the medium.

I've got a question for the sages here. Why do some companies chose resin over white metal and vise-versa.

Is one better suited to certain scales than the other? Is it because white metal has been available longer, so it's more of a throwback or keeping things as they were?

I've got plenty of questions regarding this subject, but these questions just about cover it for me.

Thanks

Gabe
 
Hi Gabe,

not an expert on this, but some people prefer metal, others resin for the feel of the material, for their certain properties (carving, sanding, painting, etc.), based on technologies needed for casting, price, etc. But until someone gives you a better answer, you may go through these threads:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15012&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13398&highlight=%27metal+resin%27

Denes
 
i have some idea's.
White metal figures is difficult to produce and need special equipment. So for some small companys it's to expensive.
The smaller companys choose for resin. They don't need no expensive equipment.
Just my thoughts.

marc
 
Cost. The tooling for molds for metal castings is expensive. Molds for resin figures are much cheaper.
:)
 
Well when you talk about cost it is all relative. The cost of the rubber is not really much higher for one over the other. You do need special equipment to vulcanize the rubber for metal casting. That is a heated press that solidifies the rubber. For resin casting you can use catalyzed or room temp rubber.

I have found that the molds for spin casting hold up much better then any of the molds I have run for resin. Two hundred parts easy with the rubber I am using and the mold is still just fine. That would not be the case with resin molds. So over the long-run rubber costs can be higher for resin.

I like the fact that the metal is something I can recycle. If I get a bad casting it just gets re-melted and re-used. If you get a bad resin casting that material is just wasted for the most part.

Material costs are different but at the moment the metal has come down a lot. Resin can be expensive and fluctuate with the price of oil. Depending on the market forces they can be close to the same cost. I try to hold myself to a high casting standard for the metal castings we put out and our figures once primed look the same as the resin castings that we use to create our molds.
 
On the end user side (consumer) I have no real preference.

However, it should be noted that clarity of the kit is important for that first impression.

Let me explain:

White metal has always had clarity over resin because of the opacity.

First impressions are always important and natural blonde resin fails to show clarity of fine details and finesse when viewing unpainted pieces. When looking at a show or a friends kit stash the translucency of natural resin masks a lot of that clarity. Now yes, once primed it can be seen, however a vendor or friend isn't going to say : " one moment while I prime that for you so you can see the details better"

Several resin manufacturers dye the resin and that eliminates the translucency issue, and in my opinion gives the piece that 'wow' factor.

Yes, this is purely aesthetics, but I guarantee, the same piece cast in resin one with natural color and one dyed, the dyed one will have more oohs and ahhs!
 
It has been my experience that you find the really detailed figure kits with lots of small detail parts tends to be metal. Some of this is due to the fact that small details are easier to cast in metal and tend to not break as easily as resin, particularly when de-molding. I like both mediums.

The one serious drawback resin is that most resin tends to off gas for up to 6 months after it is cast. This can cause problems with paint adhesion and sometimes resin will seep for a while before going stable. This can cause paint to flake and bubble months after the figure or model is painted, if it was painted right after it was cast. It is my practice to clean up and put together a resin figure then I usually let it sit for 3-6 months prior to painting.

You also find that some of the mold release used in resins can be quite hard to remove. I have gotten to the point where I give my resins a good wash and scrub with an old soft toothbrush in lacquer thinner prior giving it a good undercoat.

Lastly the other disadvantage to Resin is that if it gets too warm it can warp. I had a figure model sag on me after it spent an afternoon in a car that was too hot. No matter how hard I tried to correct the warping with hot water and re-posing, the kit was a loss because it never was quite right.
Cheers,
Mark
 
You also find that some of the mold release used in resins can be quite hard to remove. I have gotten to the point where I give my resins a good wash and scrub with an old soft toothbrush in lacquer thinner prior giving it a good undercoat.

Interesting phenomena,

It would be curious to know who uses mold releases in resin casting.

I've seen the casting process at Verlinden, Harper Castings, Warriors, New World Miniatures and the VLS house stuff (Custom Dioramics, Legends and Lore, etc) they didn't use mold release agents.

Verlinden would paint Windsor and Newton Matte Varnish on masters that would hide glue marks and fills small scratches and gives it an even sheen as well as an eggshell surface like a non-stick skillet. Rubber suckers onto masters with a glossy surface.
 
Most of the manufacturers would agree that resin makes better sense
in producing, packaging, shipping, etc. Plus, some countries now apply
strict importing laws on white metal products, I heard.

From what I heard from a few manufacturers that use white metal,
the 2 main reasons to stay with white metal are:

1. white metal figures commend much higher retail price than resin ones.

2. It takes a lot of work to convert all their masters that had already
been prepared for metal casting to suit resin casting. All parts need to
be re-treed up!!!


I don't use release agent either. Silicone itself releases its own release agent
when reacting to heat generated by curing resin.
 
I’ve never used mold release for resin casting either, though I am told that its use will extend mold life. On average, without mold release I’m able to get about one hundred to a hundred and fifty castings from a mold, usually the lesser quantity. To save a bad mold, and I’ve never tried this, I’m told you can bake the mold to kind of burn out the resin that has permeated the rubber. The burning out is why I’ve never tried this not wanting to fill the place up with potentially toxic smoke and gas.

Personally, I prefer resin castings for figures to metal, mostly because it is easy to carve and fasten new pieces to. Were I finishing-assembling and painting-commercial castings things would probably be different and I would likely prefer metal castings for their life. Of course the preference for metal castings would depend entirely on who did the casting and the quality of the metal they use. If a casting is made with high quality metal the resolution and density of the part is on par with a good quality resin casting. Too often in the past I purchased metal castings that just weren’t very good, very porous and not at all crisp. Things seem to have changed lately as (I only buy a few so may not be the best judge) I have not gotten a poor metal casting from anyone.

For the manufacturer metal is probably the best long term material for the following reasons; As Jeff mentioned earlier bad castings can be recycled in the melt pot; mold life is superior to molds used for resin casting; spin casting is less labor intensive than drop poring which most do with resin; finally with spin casting a lot more castings can be gotten from a single spin/poor (usually) than can be had from a single poor of resin.

As a maker of originals what I really like most about metal casting is that the manufacturer (my customer) converts the original to some hard metal for use as a master in making production molds. What is really neat is that two of my customers actually convert to silver and I’ve purchased silver castings from them to give away as gifts. These silver figures are wonderful gifts and have saved me a lot of work while fulfilling some family requests that would otherwise not have been. A silver figure is in itself complete with no need for painting or any additional work after clean up and removal from the carrier.


Ray
 
...I've seen the casting process at Verlinden... they didn't use mold release agents...

Something is often on the Verlinden 120mm figures I have. I can feel it when looking over parts. I wash the parts with dish detegent and that gets rid of it.

Ditto for 200mm busts; they feel filmy, but less so than figures.

:)
 
Lastly the other disadvantage to Resin is that if it gets too warm it can warp. I had a figure model sag on me after it spent an afternoon in a car that was too hot. No matter how hard I tried to correct the warping with hot water and re-posing, the kit was a loss because it never was quite right.
Cheers,
Mark

The other side of that coin is metal figures are likely to fold over if not well balanced. I have a Pegaso gladiator charging on one leg. He has dropped forward and is now supported by his shield. I have three mounted figures, one with three legs on the ground, one rearing and one galloping on one leg. All have collapsed. The rearing figure would have needed to have a channel grouond out of both rear legs and a serious metal rod inserted then closed up and resculpted to keep him in position. A figure or horse in an action pose is likely to have the legs bent so just drilling up the leg for a rod support is not possible.
These figures are doomed:
Andrea-S4F039.jpg

Andrea-SGS17.jpg
 
Another consideration is postage costs, resin being a lot lighter than metal, particularly in larger scales. Mind you postage in the UK has escalated over the last couple of years. As for mold release I tried it and didnt like it, had too many failures due to air and it also reacted with the surface of the casting on ocasion. Now I just lightly talc the molds every pour.As for mold life I wish I could pull 100+ castings from a mold. I normally manage about 30 one piece castings then the drag of the casting damages the mold.

Rob.

www.hardwick85.freeserve. co.uk
 
Hi Gabe,

not an expert on this, but some people prefer metal, others resin for the feel of the material, for their certain properties (carving, sanding, painting, etc.), based on technologies needed for casting, price, etc. But until someone gives you a better answer, you may go through these threads:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15012&highlight=%27metal+resin%27
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13398&highlight=%27metal+resin%27

Denes

Thanks dinovision, I'll look through those threads.

Megroot, IIIcorps, AJLaFleche and BobLff257, thank you for the info and comments.
 
Well when you talk about cost it is all relative. The cost of the rubber is not really much higher for one over the other. You do need special equipment to vulcanize the rubber for metal casting. That is a heated press that solidifies the rubber. For resin casting you can use catalyzed or room temp rubber.

I have found that the molds for spin casting hold up much better then any of the molds I have run for resin. Two hundred parts easy with the rubber I am using and the mold is still just fine. That would not be the case with resin molds. So over the long-run rubber costs can be higher for resin.

I like the fact that the metal is something I can recycle. If I get a bad casting it just gets re-melted and re-used. If you get a bad resin casting that material is just wasted for the most part.

Material costs are different but at the moment the metal has come down a lot. Resin can be expensive and fluctuate with the price of oil. Depending on the market forces they can be close to the same cost. I try to hold myself to a high casting standard for the metal castings we put out and our figures once primed look the same as the resin castings that we use to create our molds.

Jeff, thanks for the answer. The recycling of the metal does make sense.
 
On the end user side (consumer) I have no real preference.

However, it should be noted that clarity of the kit is important for that first impression.

Let me explain:

White metal has always had clarity over resin because of the opacity.

First impressions are always important and natural blonde resin fails to show clarity of fine details and finesse when viewing unpainted pieces. When looking at a show or a friends kit stash the translucency of natural resin masks a lot of that clarity. Now yes, once primed it can be seen, however a vendor or friend isn't going to say : " one moment while I prime that for you so you can see the details better"

Several resin manufacturers dye the resin and that eliminates the translucency issue, and in my opinion gives the piece that 'wow' factor.

Yes, this is purely aesthetics, but I guarantee, the same piece cast in resin one with natural color and one dyed, the dyed one will have more oohs and ahhs!

Thanks Gordy, so the another question when it comes to resin, which casting color is preferred?
 
Most of the manufacturers would agree that resin makes better sense
in producing, packaging, shipping, etc. Plus, some countries now apply
strict importing laws on white metal products, I heard.

From what I heard from a few manufacturers that use white metal,
the 2 main reasons to stay with white metal are:

1. white metal figures commend much higher retail price than resin ones.

2. It takes a lot of work to convert all their masters that had already
been prepared for metal casting to suit resin casting. All parts need to
be re-treed up!!!


I don't use release agent either. Silicone itself releases its own release agent
when reacting to heat generated by curing resin.

Thanks T50. Are there manufacturers that make both? Resin and metal of the same sculpt? Or would that just be redundant?
 
I’ve never used mold release for resin casting either, though I am told that its use will extend mold life. On average, without mold release I’m able to get about one hundred to a hundred and fifty castings from a mold, usually the lesser quantity. To save a bad mold, and I’ve never tried this, I’m told you can bake the mold to kind of burn out the resin that has permeated the rubber. The burning out is why I’ve never tried this not wanting to fill the place up with potentially toxic smoke and gas.

Personally, I prefer resin castings for figures to metal, mostly because it is easy to carve and fasten new pieces to. Were I finishing-assembling and painting-commercial castings things would probably be different and I would likely prefer metal castings for their life. Of course the preference for metal castings would depend entirely on who did the casting and the quality of the metal they use. If a casting is made with high quality metal the resolution and density of the part is on par with a good quality resin casting. Too often in the past I purchased metal castings that just weren’t very good, very porous and not at all crisp. Things seem to have changed lately as (I only buy a few so may not be the best judge) I have not gotten a poor metal casting from anyone.

For the manufacturer metal is probably the best long term material for the following reasons; As Jeff mentioned earlier bad castings can be recycled in the melt pot; mold life is superior to molds used for resin casting; spin casting is less labor intensive than drop poring which most do with resin; finally with spin casting a lot more castings can be gotten from a single spin/poor (usually) than can be had from a single poor of resin.

As a maker of originals what I really like most about metal casting is that the manufacturer (my customer) converts the original to some hard metal for use as a master in making production molds. What is really neat is that two of my customers actually convert to silver and I’ve purchased silver castings from them to give away as gifts. These silver figures are wonderful gifts and have saved me a lot of work while fulfilling some family requests that would otherwise not have been. A silver figure is in itself complete with no need for painting or any additional work after clean up and removal from the carrier.


Ray

Ray thanks so much for your answer, but I have a question for you. On different sculpting forums, I've read where the casters get maybe 25-30 castings per mold? These are on 1/12 scale figures. Are they wrong, do they just abuse the heck out of they're molds? Basically, how do you get 100 castings per mold? If you don't mind me asking(y)

Gabe
 
Gabe,
I'm not sure that I can give a definitive answer to the question of how many shots can be had from a mold used in resin casting but will attempt something with the following. While no scientific method was used to come up with these opinions here are some of the situations I've observed and think might have an effect on mold life. First, I think it very important to have a slick smooth pattern for making molds from, the theory is that this makes a mold that is less pores than one made from a pattern that is itself pores. This is one of the reasons why I gloss coat most of my patterns before mold making. It is especially critical if you are using brass patterns as the reaction between the metal and the rubber will surly damage the rubber during the curing process and limit the number of castings you can get from the mold. Next on the list of things you may or may not be able to control yourself is that, a larger heavier casting will generate much more heat than a smaller casting and I believe that this heat also contributes to mold deterioration. As most of the casting I've done over the past decade has consisted of small parts, or small scale figures I think that this may be the most influential of the factors determining mold life. Right now I am using a pair of molds for making 1/48 scale armature parts that have produced well over one hundred castings each. I don't know the exact number of castings gotten from each mold and know that one may have been used more than the other, but do know it is a pretty high number because I have had these molds in action for nearly four years (I made the patterns and molds in May of 2006), and last year alone I sculpted 47 figures using these armature bits, while at the same time sending two or three dozen out to people on PF, also last year. Were I to guess right now I'd say that each mold has seen an average of 100-110 castings, and I expect to get an additional 20-30 from each as no sign of resin sticking has been noted yet.

Two or three final possibilities remain (possibilities that I can think of, though more may exist), first is I think it important that a mold be de-gassed very thoroughly, my own vac-pump will pull 24.25 inches at about a mile above sea level, more at lower elevations. Finally, I'm certain that the choice of rubber will have a direct effect on its usable life once made into a mold. In my experience the harder rubbers seem to have a shorter working life than softer ones becoming impregnated with residual resin more quickly than the softer types. Concerning rubbers I think it also important that the rubber to hardener ratio be as exact as possible, a mold that cures to rapidly I think has a shorter working life than one that cures more slowly. Finally, choice of resin is sure to have some effect on mold life. Some types cure fast and hot, while others are a bit slower and generate much less heat in the process. My personal choice of Rubber is Dow Corning’s HS 2, and resin is Alumilite. The rubber I choose because it is soft enough to be forgiving of deep undercuts, de-gasses quickly without trouble and lasts well as a mold. The choice of resin is part, because I'm familiar with it (used to get it at the hobby shop for simple drop and open face casting) and it works well enough and reliably enough for my purposes, which are not to make production castings.

As previously stated no scientific method was used to come up with the above so feel free, anyone, to find fault or disagree with it. These answers are all the result of haphazard observation, even the numbers of castings per mold are not 'actual', but rather the product of trying to recall how many of a certain casting I've used over the years and when the mold(s) was made. The nice thing about the example used is that I've only ever made the two original molds made from one set of dated patterns-I always date my patterns but never the molds.



Ray
 
Thanks Ray. I did think size would have been an issue, so its good to know that what I plan to start with might make it more feasible than I first thought.

Gabe
 

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