US Navy Black or Blue-Black uniforms

[Dan Morton]

I've downloaded about 20 color photos of USN sailors in the dark uniform from periods from WWI to Vietnam. In some lights it seems to be very dark blue-black. In others it looks just plain black. According to reasonably good sources, the colors haven't changed much since before WWI. The cap changed from the black flat top hat to the white soft sailor cap and there are buttons in places where there were ties, but not the basic color or too much else.

Being ex-USAF, not Navy, I'm certainly no authority. So - OK - what's the "correct" color? HELP!

All the best,
Dan

 

[btavis]

It's Navy blue, duh! Seriously, the color is very, very dark blue. You can use Paynes Gray and Ultramarine.

 

[Jim Patrick]

Dan, I'm no expert either (Army) but I believe it's a dark blue. Almost black. Darker than prussian blue but not quite black. I also have several pictures of my father-in-law in WWII (He was in the navy) and some of his patches. The backgroung is this "black-blue" I'm refering to.

HTH,
Jim Patrick

 

[Dan Morton]

Hey - Bob! Yes I know it's "Navy". But in different lights, in different photographs, etc., etc., and never having seen the actual uniform fabric. One of the photos I downloaded is of two sailors in bright sunlight and it sure looks like they're wearing solid black.

Whatever....

 

[pgarri27]

Being an ex sailor, it is dark Navy blue. A sailor could buy "Gaberdines", a uniform the was almost black, and while not official issue, it looked much better.

 

[Dan Morton]

Thanks Pete! I kind of solved this problem myself, completely by accident.

What I really needed was to see the uniform "in the flesh". I know it sounds somewhat ludicrous, but in 22 years in USAF, I don't remember being stationed in a joint command where there were Navy types, etc., etc. Since I spent 9 years in UK, and worked with RAF, British Army and Royal Navy enlisted and officers, I could probably mix the colors of their uniforms easily from memory, but not the US Navy! And the references I had were misleading. Anyway - I was in the Class VI store buying beer at Offutt AFB a few days after posting this and saw a sailor in "blues". [Yes - Offutt - Omaha, Nebraska -in the geo-center of the US has USN assigned!] I stared at his uniform until he probably wanted to report me to the SPs, but...problem solved.

On my Vbench you can see why I asked the question. You won't see posts of the painted figure, but I'm getting there. I've painted the figure but still have a few details left before I can post the final result. This week I hope to finish back pack straps and highlight and shading, etc.

Thanks to you and everybody else that helped!

all the best,
Dan

 

[TomRiddle]

Dan,

For the period you are modeling...blue. Indanthrene Blue is a pretty good match.

Tom Riddle

P.S. I am currently serving in the U.S. Navy, and my Dress Blues are black.

 

[pgarri27]

I'm glad you got to see it in the 'flesh'. I was going to suggest a trip to an Army-Navy surplus store. On another subject, do you know any good references for WWI Air Service uniforms? My grandfather served, and the pics I have of him in uniform are B&W, and front view only. I can't make out the patch on his shoulder. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Pete

 

[Dan Morton]

Tom - Thanks for the tip! Dress blues - are we talking about the same uniform?

This is the figure I'm attempting to paint.

This is the photo I'm using as a reference.

Although this is actually a WW2 uniform, it is the nearest color match to what I saw in the Class VI recently and what I'm painting the figure.

I think my eyes need re-calibration!

all the best,
Dan

 

[pgarri27]

Hi Dan,
I like the figure you are going to paint. I might be wrong, but I think the picture you show of a jumper is not WWII. I think the rating badges were on the other sleeve then. This one looks much more modern to me. The single red strip indicates four years service with good conduct. The rating badge indicates third class petty officer (E-4), and I think I see crossed gun barrels under the "crow" which would make the owner a Gunners Mate. You will notice on the picture you have of the bugler that there is white piping on the jumper flap. That would make this a Dress Blues uniform. Also, on the newer jumper you see white piping on the sleeve cuffs, but not on the bugler, indicating the bugler is an older uniform. The rifle should date your bugler also. As my interests lie in Napoleonic and ACW, I am not so familiar with 'modern' weapons. I was in boot camp in 1968 and we had M1 Garrands. Here is a link to a Navy Uniform site that may give you some further information. Navy Uniform History Can't wait to see the finished figure.
Pete

 

[pgarri27]

Oh yeah, One more thing. I think the color of the uniform changed. I think it was bluer in the old days. Aren't I alot of help?
Pete

 

[pgarri27]

Okay, I should just leave it alone. But this has sparked my curisoity, so I went a searching on the web. This ebay item WWII undress jumper is closer to the color I think you are looking for. Note the wide cuffless sleeves, no piping and the rating badge on the right arm.
Pestering Pete

 

[Dan Morton]

The color I painted the sailor was darker than the one you just posted from e-Bay. Nearer the jumper I posted. In painting it, I paid no attention to the ribbons and various other salad dressing on the one I posted. Seriously, you've been very helpful and a lot of the confusion on this issue, in my opinion, has been the way that particular blue-black color behaves in various types of light. My best guess is that when photographed in brighter light and in direct sunlight, it's nearer black, but in in-between or subdued lighting, it looks bluer.

Anyway, wait and see if you approve. I should be ready to post the final tomorrow or Monday. Just completing the pack straps now.

All the best,
Dan

 

[Dan Morton]

Forgot to mention that the blouse I posted is from a Militaria web site and the write-up on the site identified it as WW2 period.

all the best,
Dan

 

[Dan Morton]

About the US Army Air Service uniform, I'd try the League of WWI Aviation Historians. Try -
(1) James Streckfuss - [email protected]
(2) Noel Shirley - [email protected]
(3) Peter Kilduff - [email protected]
(4) Jack Herris - [email protected]

The above is from 1998 so it may be out of date. I subscribed to their great but expensive magazine Over the Front for about 2 years. Their web site is overthefront.com.

all the best,
Dan

 

[lscrep]

Navy blue is the color, it does almost look black under certain lighting conditions. In the 1970's when the Navy was switching out of the old style unfiorms to newer ones ,newer materials were added in cluding Gaberdine, and polyester knits for all uniforms. The company that manufactered the original navy wool material went out of business, and when the Navy went back to the traditional uniform new materials had to be found. Later in the 80's it was discovered that some of the new synthetic uniforms presented increased danger to Naval personnel in fire fighting situations, and a move was made away from some of the polyesters.
Tailor made gaberdines or dress uniforms do look almost black depending on the source of material.
Be prepared the Navy is currently in the process of testing a fatigue style uniform in the fleet as a work uniform. One style is various blue/gray camoflage type colors. Other changes will always follow. check the Navynews website and you can see the proposed uniform changes.
After my 30 years were completed I got rid of them all except for one set of dress blues w/white gloves for my final deployment when that day comes.
Wayne
CPO,USN (ret)

 

[Dan Morton]

Congratulations on that retirement Chief! Thanks for the info also. Incidentally the figure that was the focus for all this furor and comment about uniform color is on my vBench if you'd like to see it. I think I got close to the right uniform color.

My younger brother retired as a WO4 a few years back. Yours truly was an Air Force puke. Retired Major after 22 years [and glad to be out!!!]

all the best,
Dan

 

[TomRiddle]

Dan,
Same uniform, different era.

The dress blue you want is blue. They changed the color to black (for some reason) in the 70's.

The picture you posted is a photo of the dress blue I wear now. The single red service strip is for four years service (not Good Counduct...you get those every three years). Once you have served 12 consectutive years Good Conduct your service strips and chevrons go gold, and your crow and rating badge go silver.

At one time, select ratings were authorized wear of the "crow" on either the left or right sleeve. Now we all wear the on the left.

If you have any more questions, just post them.

Tom Riddle

 

[Dan Morton]

No more questions, Tom. The figure that provoked the question is completed and painted. See my vBench if you'd like to see the completed sailor.

all the best,
Dan