Where have i heard this before?

[brian]

SMC results- I attended but didn't enter the comp. so I have no axe to grind. There were a fabulous collection of models on display, and while I appreciate its quite subjective- I do have some strong issues with some of the awards. I feel some of the judging was quite erratic. I feel a little a bit upset for some of the modellers who I can see have produced something quite extraordinary and been shortchanged. Some of the best awards have gone to models that had glaring issues, but were awarded due to the reputation of the modeller IMHO.
Still- I understand its hard to agree on something like this- we all have our preferences!

 

[megroot]

SMC results- I attended but didn't enter the comp. so I have no axe to grind. There were a fabulous collection of models on display, and while I appreciate its quite subjective- I do have some strong issues with some of the awards. I feel some of the judging was quite erratic. I feel a little a bit upset for some of the modellers who I can see have produced something quite extraordinary and been shortchanged. Some of the best awards have gone to models that had glaring issues, but were awarded due to the reputation of the modeller IMHO.
Still- I understand its hard to agree on something like this- we all have our preferences!

Not to speak angry about SMC judging......but I find this out some years ago.
Isn't that with all the contests.
For myself: I stopped entering competitions.

Marc

 

[Blind Pew]

Not to speak angry about SMC judging......but I find this out some years ago.
Isn't that with all the contests.
For myself: I stopped entering competitions.

Marc

I think Marc is spot on here. I too have pretty much packed in entering competitions. Because you have to use humans to do it, judging becomes very erratic. I'm not having a pop at judges, it's an often difficult, invidious and time-consuming task. So don't get me wrong, I do thank them.

It's just that ... I just think the "this is worth this" and "this is worth that" kinda thing can be very demotivating.
I don't mind putting stuff on display though...

 

[Tecumsea]

Judging is always an issue, if you are not prepared to take the ups and downs don't enter. It is totally subjective and as such suffers from glaring inconsistencies. I saw Mike Blank on Saturday evening after a long session judging, these guys give their time and work hard sorting out the medals and should be thanked.
I know professional modellers who try to influence the results as a gold means a better price. Modellers who get gold at mfca and nothing at euro or smc. Modellers who think they are better than they are, modellers who get medals because they are club members...etc, etc.
It will never be perfect, nor is human nature.

 

[Tecumsea]

I think it is worth pointing out that Brian is probably referring to the SMC show in Scotland a couple of weeks ago and not the Eindhoven show. However my comments about judging refer to shows in general.

Keith

 

[brian]

Not to speak angry about SMC judging......but I find this out some years ago.
Isn't that with all the contests.
For myself: I stopped entering competitions.

Marc

The above statement is not mine,but it's from a modeller who was at the Einhoven show,that i copied and pasted from facebook.

 

[megroot]

I think it is worth pointing out that Brian is probably referring to the SMC show in Scotland a couple of weeks ago and not the Eindhoven show. However my comments about judging refer to shows in general.

Keith

It's indeed from Eindhoven. See Brian's post.

Marc

 

[Tecumsea]

Sorry Brian my mistake!-I knew you didn't go to Eindhoven so assumed you were referring to the Edinburgh show.

Keith

 

[ghamilt1]

Judging has always been a bit of a mystery to me, as it has been to many others I'm sure. It must be very taxing to have to look at hundreds of figures and try to sort out which ones are best, so I certainly don't envy the job of a judge in that regard. And I'm sure we all know the judges are going about their business based on some agreed upon criteria, right? So if I am hearing this discussion correctly, the question many of us ask ourselves is why the same figure would receive gold at one show, and then bronze at another show? Where's the consistency in how these models are being assessed?​

​

Fortunately, I have a little bit of experience in assessment and I humbly submit to you that what is needed in the competition community is an agreed upon standard of which everyone, judges AND contestants are aware. In teaching we call these documents Rubrics. They outline the clear criterion on which a student will be assessed for any given assignment. As the teacher, I mark according to that rubric, and the student also gets a copy before they begin the work, so they know the criteria as well.​

​

I am POSITIVE judges have a set criterion. After all, what do they talk about at those pre-judging briefings anyways? But as a contestant, I have never been privy to those meetings, and do not know what the criterion is. I suggest that contest organizers create for their judges a Rubric. Set out in writing exactly the characteristics the committee is looking for in a gold, silver, or bronze award. Then make that rubric available to the contestants well before the show begins so everyone knows how the game is being played. You could even go so far as to use the rubric as a judging sheet and give it to the contestants. Didn't get Gold? Well, did you meet the criterion for the Gold standard that everyone was aware of? ​

​

I could go on and on. But this I know from professional experience (29 years' worth). Using Rubrics has eliminated most of the negative interactions I have had with students and parents. They may not like the mark they get, but they rarely argue the merits on which their mark was based. SO I would be happy to act as a consultant for any show organizers who would be willing to create a standardized system of Criterion for their show. My fees are very reasonable. ​

Cheers;
Glenn

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Judging are indeed subjective by its nature. Otherwise we would meassure.

However, I usually say that there are three different kinds of outcome.

-You totally agree with the judges decission more than 90%.
-You dont agree but you can understand the decissions and realize that different people can have a different view in these matters.
-The WTF, when you see results that dont make any sence. Which happens all too often unfortunately.

But, one thing to bear in mind is that the judges usually have examened the piece and perhaps found faults that the average viewer dont see unless picking the piece up and look at it closely. That has been the case many times in my experience, people wonder why a certain magnifically painted model didnt scrore so well until you show them the mold lines and stains of glue, seeing the pinning pin, hoovering a half millimeter above the ground etc. And I often see very good modellers miss such basics on otherwise fantatastic figures.

Also there must be a limit for the judges for how many entries they can judge. Not more than 2 hours in the hall. Its the same as when you paint, you loose focus.

The judging of Euro and now SMC, Ive stopped caring a long time ago regarding the former, and can not engage myself in the latter.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[DEL]

I think Keith sums it up quite nicely in his comment "if you're not prepared to take the ups and downs don't enter". Very very few make a living from painting figures the vast majority simply enjoy the hobby and give it our best shot. If you win a wee bit of metal that's great, if on the other hand fellow hobbyists compliment you and give you constructive criticism then that's brilliant.
For me, and this is why I could never judge, the painting is very much secondary to the narrative.When I see work including single pieces that depict a situation my minds eye takes over and my imagination begins to construct a story. I can spend so much time concentrating on a couple of pieces I miss lots of other stuff at shows.
So well done to those who take on the role, just so long as it's for the right reasons.

 

[theBaron]

I build and paint what I like, the way I like, for myself. I avoid the whole competition thing.

Prost!
Brad

 

[John Bowery]

I only enter select shows that I like and if I win something then so be it. If not then on to the next one. I generally miss IPMS and go for "chicago rules" IE bronze, silver and gold and not 1,2,3. The main thing is to meet friends with the same interests and have a fun day out. Usually over lunch.
Cheers
John

 

[Viking Bob]

When Euro first started years ago, (yes I know, old bugger) I did enter the comps. I had a few commendations, and on the local club circuit a few wins. I soon began to think like Brad, I'm in it for myself and what I liked.
Do I like the compliments on here, yes of course I do. Will I enter competitions again, I doubt it but who knows.
Regards to all.

 

[Forté]

I once got told "it's not winning, it's being on the shelf". I've still never entered anything. One day I will.

 

[Andrew Perren]

Just imagine how much moaning there would be if there was real prize money on offer at these things . I still enter competitions because I like the positive aspects that competition brings.
Agree with all the above comments on judging but I would add that one sure way to understand the judging process is to volunteer to help out - sure taught me heaps .

If you enter enough comps then you'll probably have as many "head scratchers" go for you as against so you gotta accept it.


That is until I finish the design on my - "Judge-inator 3000". I'll be rich I tell you, rich $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Ferris]

Here's a picture from the other side: (is that you Andrew?)

Adrian

 

[Ferris]

Agree with Andrew, there are positives to competitions as well that, for me at least, outweigh the occasional surprise at results (which we shouldn't take too seriously anyway).

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[Mike Stevens]

I've been very fortunate to attend many shows here in the US. I've seen good judging and bad. I've been the victim of both J.

I’ve also had the odd occasion to be asked to be a show Judge. I can tell you I do not envy the work of the Judges. I’ve seen these guys and gals working well into the evening while the rest of attendee’s are having a beer in the local bar/pub. They typically don’t finish judging until late in the evening and then start early on Saturday for the late entries. And that is usually after a long flight and getting checked into the show themselves. Then they have to deal with people like us asking “how we scored”, “what can we do to improve”, “why didn’t they pick once piece over the other” to judge. I have to imagine that its quite tedious after a while. These judges are just people like us. They get tired, they make mistakes. It happens.

I love the shows because of the sense of camaraderie and a chance to hang out with like minded painters and modelers that are at the top of our hobby from a skill level. I’ve learned so much from the judges as well. I have only met one Judge over the last seven years or so who wouldn’t or wasn’t capable of giving me feedback. The rest have openly given me honest critiques (for better or worse) be prepared to hear the bad with the good. I have become a better modeler and painter as a result.

I believe that competition brings out the best in our hobby and that shows are key to keeping it going for many more years. So lighten up and have fun.


Regards,