LongBowman ,Agincourt.

Greetings,
I dont know how controversial this will be but here goes.A basic bust of a Longbowman has been roughed out.However im not sure if it meant to be a one or two fingered salute.There has been much discussion as to whether such a gesture took place but am open to suggestions.comments welcome.
Andy

Great start Andy, I'd go with the 2 fingered version.
Carl.

I'd go with 2 fingered version as well.

I have read about the origins of the "salute" and here's what I remember about it... The English longbow was first introduced in the battle of Crecy, where it had devastating effect on the French armored knights. The weapon was feared by the French so much that they used to cut two fingers off of English prisoners in order to ensure those could never return to the English side and draw the bow again. The "salute" was developed as an English sign gesturing the enemy something like: hey, look, I have both fingers, I can draw my bow and you're f***ed.

Mario

Woohoo an new one from Andy!

I say go for the two fingered version and I like the attitude the figure conveys. I bit off topic but I loved reading Bernard Cornwell's "Agincourt" and this one has "Nicholas Hook" written all over it. Looking forward to seeing more on this bust, well done!

Andy, nice one. I too would stick with the two fingered salute and I'll follow with interest.

Cheers Ken

Andy. Two fingers. And I can´t wait to see the complete version

Ulrich

Maki said:

I have read about the origins of the "salute" and here's what I remember about it... The English longbow was first introduced in the battle of Crecy, where it had devastating effect on the French armored knights. The weapon was feared by the French so much that they used to cut two fingers off of English prisoners in order to ensure those could never return to the English side and draw the bow again. The "salute" was developed as an English sign gesturing the enemy something like: hey, look, I have both fingers, I can draw my bow and you're f***ed.

Mario

Click to expand...

That's a well known tale but unfortunately it's apocryphal; there's not a shred of evidence to support it.

As for the bust, I think it's a great pose but for the sake of authenticity I think it would suit a 20th century subject better than an Agincourt bowman.

LOL....I had the same idea but am doing mine via a conversion of an existing bust.

I'm a ways off from continuing mine since the right hand is still in a cast so, I'll be watching your development for ideas and inspiration.

Good luck with it!

Kevin D.

Thanks for your input guys,two fingers it is ,fact or fiction.
Andy

Jonathan,
Please tell me why for the sake of authenticty would I portray this gesture in the 20th or 21st century when its origin is over 600 years old?
Andy

Hi Andy,
Simply because it's origin is not (or at least may not be) 600 years old. This gesture (given by an Englishman as a derogatory one) was, I believe, first recorded in the early 20th century.
The story of it originating in the Agincourt era is very attractive (and kind of plausible) but there simply isn't evidence that the French ever threatened to amputate archers' digits, less that they ever actually did it. There is mention that there may have been a story at the time that the French would do that, but that story is English in origin - simply propoganda with no basis in fact. Similar maybe to the stories put out by the Japanese that US Marines would torture and eat any civilians they captured in the Pacific islands - simply no baisis of truth in it but the civilian population absolutely believed it to be true.

This subject is one of the few things I remember from my history lessons at school. My teacher used it as an example of what history 'really is' or 'really isn't'. He used the Agincourt story (a widely accepted 'truth) to show how history ain't neccessarily what we think it to be - take a 'truth' and then try to find evidence of that truth. Put simply, there is no evidence of this particular Agincourt truth.
Even looked at subjectively, why would a gesture be originated and used briefly, only then to completely disappear from all useage and re-appear spontaneously 500 years later?

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible for an Agincourt archer to have stuck his fingers up in that manner, just that the 2 finger salute is in all likleyhood NOT synonymous with them.

Please don't let this detract from what I think is a great pose for a (modern) bust!

Jon.

Hello All,
The work continues.The left arm has been set and the hand carved out from a mitten and the fingers then divided.When doing this I found it easier to cut the first line between the middle and third finger then halve the either side,that way the fingers work out evenly.
The bow was cut from a piece of brass and filed down,a drum sander on a dremel smoothed the contour.The "Nock"?,at the top was gently filed to shape and a groove put in with a cutting disc also with the dremel.
The composition has worked out well with the curve of the bow reflecting the raised right arm.You will see a triangle form from the right hand to the tip of the bow and the left hand.The frame work is now set.
The back of the bust has yet to be shaped a sanded before anything eles is to be started.
comments welcome.
Andy

This is looking really sharp Andy How are you going to terminate the bow string ? In the crook of the inner left elbow?

Whether a ficticious action or not, It is commonly used nowadays akin to the one finger of the US.
The action must have started somewhere and I like the idea of a Bowman`s arrogance !

Whatever offensive guesture given to the French is always good right ? I jest !!!!


What is fact,however, is that you are producing a most excellent bust and I cant wait to see it completed

Andy

Gordy,Andy,
The bowstring will probably run down the out side and finish at the wrist somewhere.
We,ve had a serious earthquake here registering 7.1 on the richter scale at 4.35am,we are still getting slight tremors as I write.We are safe and well with little damage,but the city centre has been hit with some older buildings gone.Luckily no deaths have been reported from the quake.
andy

Glad to hear that you and your family are ok.

Ulrich

Very nice! I like it a lot

The earliest visual record of the V

1902

According to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign An early recorded use of the 'two-fingered salute' is in the Macclesfield Psalter of c.1330 (in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge), being made by a glove in the Psalter’s marginalia.[5
Carl.

I rest my case.
Andy