WIP Critique 1st Bavarian Heavy Cavalry Lancer - 1914

[Ulrich]

Dan. First some helpful drawings.

 

[martin tabony]

Most of my reference is for full dress but I'll kep digging till I find the feldgrau.
In German regiments, the NCO's rank insignia was a band of flat metalic lace in the button colour (white for the 1st). This was worn at the top edge of the "Swedish" cuff and at edge of the collar. In full dress the lace was at the top edge of the high collar, but the field grey uniform had a fold down collar, so it was at the bottom. Also a button with an heraldic badge was worn on the collar, in line with the shoulder strap button.The also carried a lance pennon with a state device.
In the pictureof the sergeant's uniforms, no4 is the Swedish cuff.
I thought I would include all of the state pennons. I know I shouldn't write on bucks, but sometimes you need to.
I realise your covering the pickelhaube but I included this because it's beautiful!!

 

[martin tabony]

Ulrich, nice drawings, for what book?
Martin

 

[Ulrich]

Whats the difference between pennon and pennant for a non-english? I know it under pennant.

And here the Feldrock M 1909 for an NCO from the "Bayrischen Schweren Reiter". After 1916 all red piping were changed into yellow. The stripes on the right arms are the signs for "Lanzenfechten"

 

[Ulrich]

Martin: From the books "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heers 1907 - 1918" from Jürgen Kraus

 

[martin tabony]

Ulrich, it's nice to know what the parts are called in German. It's difficult to find detailed information when I speak very little. When I was in Germany as a young soldier "Ein grosse bier, bitte" was the most import thing to know!

 

[martin tabony]

Specialist badges

 

[Ulrich]

Same Problem here when I am searching something in english and know only the german special word. But I am learning And "Ein grosses Bier, bitte" is very important here. That I know in english, french and spanish and and and

 

[Dan Morton]

What superb references! Thanks Martin and Ulrich! Invaluable!

Ulrich - The M1909 photo doesn't show a button on the collar. Is that just missing? Since you guys have been to so much trouble to provide these references, the least I can do is use them all to get things historically right.

Many thanks and no more questions, I promise!

All the best,
Dan

 

[martin tabony]

Dan, I think Ulrich will confirm this, It goes just braid, then braid and a small button, braid and a larger button, then braid, large button and an extra line of braid on the sleeve. I hesitate to give the ranks in case I spell them wrong and Ulrich could do so much better!

 

[Ulrich]

Now the Problem starts with german and english. The german "Sergeant" has a button and the stripes at the collar. The "Unteroffizier" ( I think NCO) has only the stripes in silver or Gold at the collar. The "Gefreiter" has only the button at the collar and nothing else there. Don´t know exact what rank "Gefreiter" or "Sergeant" or "Unteroffizier" is on englisch. Wikipedia says that the "Gefreiter" is usually the second rank or grade to which an enlisted soldier, airman or sailor could be promoted. "Sergeant" is the next rank after "Unteroffizier" and "Unteroffizier" must be NCO (I hope)

 

[Dan Morton]

Ulrich: Web stumbling years ago, I found this excerpt from the Chicago Daily News War Book ca. 1918 or 1919. Does it look right? I presume there was no difference between Prussian or Bavarian NCO rank insignia.

All the best,
Dan

 

[Ulrich]

That is not correct I fear. Attached a modern comparison between german and english ranks. Have a look here http://www.rk-marine-kiel.de/infos/bundeswehr/allgemein/englisch/ So the english Sergeant could be the german Unteroffizier, but your Sergeant Mayor seems to be a higher rank as the german "Sergeant" or "Feldwebel"

You find in the german army during 1914 - 1918 Schützen, Husaren (that means Privates), then Gefreite (Private E-2 in the link-list) and as the next "Unteroffizier" = NCO or Sergeant. And then after the german "Sergeant" or "Feldwebel" is would be difficult, because some ranks have the sign as "Sergeant" and have Special Buttons at the tunic or have a Special bajonet or or or. It is not easy on old photos to recognize the correct rank of a german soldier.

 

[Ulrich]

Dan. If you use the braid or the braid with a button you have two different ranks but both ranks have the Special pennant which Roger and Martin had shown. Perhaps I find in my books a correct list

 

[Ulrich]

Found in one of the books "Imperial german field uniforms and Equipment" following

Enlisted Men
Schütze = Soldier
Gefreiter = Private
Unteroffizier = Lance Corporal

Non-Commissioned officers
Sergeant = Corporal
Vizefeldwebel = Staff Sergeant
Feldwebel = Company Sergeant Major
Etatmäßiger Feldwebel = Regiment Sergeant Major

Company Officers
Offizier-Stellvertreter = Acting Officer
Feldwebel-Leutnant = Sergeant Major Leutnant
Leutnant = 2nd Leutnant
Oberleutnant = Leutnant
Hauptmann = Captain

 

[Ulrich]

In the book they forgot the ranks = Fähnrich (between Sergeanten and Vizefeldwebel), and Portopee-Fähnrich between Vizefeldwebel and Feldwebel

 

[billyturnip]

The problem with equivalent ranks in books is some are compared to US ranks and others to British, which in some cases don't even equate to each other. Where there is no equivalent some authors, particularly ones years ago, just make a guess or leaves them out completely.
Confused? You should be.

 

[martin tabony]

Personally I would go for the silver braid, it's the most obvious difference to a trooper and you get the state arms on the pennon without having to worry about buttons and sword straps etc. It's nice to know all the differences but it's easy to get bogged down in details and not crack on with the figure. I've done it!

Martin

 

[Dan Morton]

Silver braid on the stand up collar - done! Cheers Ulrich, Roger and Martin!

All the best,
Dan

 

[Ulrich]

The braid is very good and ok. But I fear our Bavarians are a Special Group. They had not only silver. In that braid they have a pattern with light blue and silver. I have photos in my book. Perhaps your painter should use better Gold as you can see on the photo