Amaranthe anyone?

[ivopreda]

The Emperi museum in Salon de Provence looks good. I wish I could leave the house and go somewhere! I've visited the Musée de l'Armée at Les Invalides in Paris which is absolutely brilliant and well worth another visit. They were going to host the Piersergio Allevi and Danilo Cartacci exhibition, "Il Volto del Comando" this year but it was cancelled due to Covid-19. However, it does seem to be going ahead later this year in November/December. We live in hope.

If you are finding this discussion on Napoleonic colours interesting and want to read more on the subject then you might start with any of the Paul Dawson books published by Frontline:

Napoleon's Waterloo Army: Uniforms and Equipment

Napoleon's Imperial Guard Uniforms and Equipment: The Infantry

Napoleon's Imperial Guard Uniforms and Equipment: The Cavalry

They are all available on Amazon so you can click the "Look Inside" link and read the introduction which is where you will find a short section dealing with Napoleonic colours, cloth and dyestuffs. Fascinating. I don't want to plagiarise the books but here's one of the cloth samples:

View attachment 380795

I think this illustrates what Ron was saying; apart from all the other variables our own perception of colour can make our judgement subjective. Bleu de ciel to me is "sky blue", the colour of the sky. Where I live in London the sky is usually a pale, watery blue; even grey. Not the beautiful azure shade of southern skies. I only intended to read the introduction to those books but my appetite was whetted and I decided to buy one. Which one? I could not decide so I bought all three. Don't tell me you're surprised, I need something to read to pass the time of day...

with the same name the colors change along the years... for sure in the past some brilliant colors were difficult to be obtained with manual technology and poor material available.

many illustrator read the description and think to modern interpretation of the colors...

 

[fogie]

All colours are relative to the light and to other colours surrounding them. So
it helps if we don't constrain ourselves by choosing them in absolute terms, as
if isolated by a colour-picker. An absolute version of Amaranthe, for example,
when placed against another colour - a Green say - might well look wrong and
unbalanced to the eye and need corrective adjustment. I often see figures that
although meticulously painted with exquisite details and everything, for me fail
because the colours jar and sometimes actually work against each other. Far
better for us to see colours relatively and balance their values and saturation
with each other harmoniously.

Mike

 

[Jaybo]

I too have very much enjoyed this thread and wholeheartedly agree with the comments of Ron, Steve, Mike and the great Ivo above. One cannot be totally dogmatic on what the correct shade was but neither can one say 'anything goes' in that regard. I am quite familiar with the research of Paul Dawson on Napoleonic colors and have corresponding with him in that regard. He has several articles on the subject on the net. He appears to be more precise than some on deciding what the correct shade should be. I believe that he is correct. On the other hand, I recall a conversation that I had years ago with the late great author and Napoleonic expert Colonel John Elting -US Army ( from 'Swords Around A Throne' fame) on the subject. He told me that the vegetable dyes used in that period were quite 'fugitive' and not color fast like modern chemically based dyes. Therefore there was variance to the color shades in his opinion. In other words, not all uniforms were 'uniform. He indicated that to get Imperial Green (very dark green) they would dye the cloth dark blue and then yellow to get Imperial Green. This was born out in the last few years when the Musee de l'Armee (if I recall correctly) did some conservation work on one of Napoleon's famous undress 'habits' of the Chasseurs a cheval de la Garde Imperiale. It had fades to dark blue!
The color of the correct shade for the 'sky blue' (bleu de ciel) has been of particular interest to me over the years. I have been very fond of the uniform of the 5th hussars. I actually have the original service record of Capitaine Arre Epinat of the 5 eme hussards. And as noted above the correct shade of bleu de ciel is actually much darker than is often depicted. Capitaine Epinat's uniform is still in the collection of the Musee de l'Armee. Here is an intersting discussion on that subject (in French): Le 5 ème hussard

 

[samson]

This mix is from Le Hussard Du Marais Technical Brochure no. 1 using W&N artist oil.

View attachment 352287

Amaranth :
Base colour - purple madder alizarin + cadmium scarlet,
Shadow - brown madder alizarin + purple madder alizarin,
Highlight - little white

This is an old W&N artist oil colour chart. Not sure if W&N updated the colour code or if they discontinued the particular paint.

Felix

I hope ou

This mix is from Le Hussard Du Marais Technical Brochure no. 1 using W&N artist oil.

View attachment 352287

Amaranth :
Base colour - purple madder alizarin + cadmium scarlet,
Shadow - brown madder alizarin + purple madder alizarin,
Highlight - little white

This is an old W&N artist oil colour chart. Not sure if W&N updated the colour code or if they discontinued the particular paint.

Felix

I hope you don’t mind I started a conversation pm with you . Thanks rob

 

[Ronaldo]

This mix is from Le Hussard Du Marais Technical Brochure no. 1 using W&N artist oil.

View attachment 352287

Amaranth :
Base colour - purple madder alizarin + cadmium scarlet,
Shadow - brown madder alizarin + purple madder alizarin,
Highlight - little white

This is an old W&N artist oil colour chart. Not sure if W&N updated the colour code or if they discontinued the particular paint.

Felix

I would think you could get close enough with what you show here with a little trial and error ( pretty much what the joy of oils is all about)

 

[Ronaldo]

It's the same old dilemma isn't it ? We want to get things right but come to realise that many variables - vegetable dyes, weathering, and simple
interpretations - mean that, in the end, we must make an informed guess. I tend to prefer slightly desaturated colours when painting figures, and
use this as my rough guide with Napoleonics. It's not necessarily relevant to this particular colour query but might be of interest - it's a colour chart
produced originally by Lucien Rousselot.

Mike


View attachment 352468

Well that was close enough for me to take a snapshot

 

[Ronaldo]

with the same name the colors change along the years... for sure in the past some brilliant colors were difficult to be obtained with manual technology and poor material available.

many illustrator read the description and think to modern interpretation of the colors...

"You live in London and the blue sky is different there " I live in Glasgow and it is sure as hell different here when you can see it
I could go on and on re all the shades of blue sky I have seen all over the world , all kidding aside ; when looking at prints of military uniforms
artists tend to show darker colours a bit lighter in reality to get a tridimensional effect.


I tend to use the P Conrad plates for my Napoleonic stuff . If you compare some of the same regiment uniforms in the Paris museum compared to the Musee d Empri there are a lot of subtle differences esp in the facing colours . But then we all fade with age