Casting of multi part figures? Hows it done?

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Jamie Stokes

A Fixture
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
2,025
Location
In Adelaide, South Australia
Howdy all,
every now and then, on here (and other websites) a figure will be sculpted up that will become a kit with multi part pieces (separate arms/ legs/ heads etc)....

How does a sculpted figure go from being a solid piece to a small stack of resin/ white metal parts?

Single part castings I can work out - some busts are good examples of this...such as some of the recent mountain man busts, ranging from a one piece casting to one with optional/ seperate accessories.... Make the master, then apply the first stages of a moulding agent, work outwards from there
(similar to this process, I guess... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_wax_casting )

For comparison, how about the mounted mountain man? Horse, rider, equipment,etc, all come as separate parts.

So is the master figure sculpted with view to being disassembled, then the parts being individually cast?

It's just that middle step of a large, complex figure, making the transition to a collection of parts that I cant work out yet.....

Cheers
 
Hi Jamie,

Are you asking, how do you break a figure down for casting purposes?

In my case, I make the piece as a single item then I saw the piece into component parts, using natural breaks in the piece to hide joints where possible, using a saw piercing frame (jewellers saw) the blades come in various sizes. I then ball drill the fits to add locations. The small parts are always made as external items to be fitted anyway. So no work really required for these.

But this also depends on the caster also, he may require a piece to be broken down in a specific way to accomodate his techniques. This also depends on the medium that the final piece is cast in. For example white metal is broken down differently to resin. Because the mould making and castings is a different technique. Also white metal has a problem with pourosity on larger castings, this is caused by the piece retaining the heat. Shrinkage can be problem in white metal on larger studies. Resin is a more forgiving medium but you have to understand where the piece will catch air and bleed from this to remove it.

I hope I understood your question correctly, and this has helped a little!

Carl
 
Howdy all,
every now and then, on here (and other websites) a figure will be sculpted up that will become a kit with multi part pieces (separate arms/ legs/ heads etc)....

How does a sculpted figure go from being a solid piece to a small stack of resin/ white metal parts?

It's just that middle step of a large, complex figure, making the transition to a collection of parts that I cant work out yet.....

Cheers

Having been a full time pattern maker for over 20 years, I can tell you that I have, only on one or two occasions tried to cut a larger piece of any sculpture down into pieces. Personally, I think this is a fools errand, fraught with the very real possibility of ruining all of your previous work, all down to poor planning and a lack of foresight.

Instead, I plan the model in pieces from the very beginning. I engineer the breaks in parts at the armature stage, before any of the "real" sculpting ever begins. The problems with cutting apart a figure are more complex than are worth explaining here. Suffice it to say that no matter how careful you are, the model never goes back together the way it was when originally sculpted. So, why subject yourself to such fingernail chewing and inevitable disappointment when a little forethought will eliminate the problem altogether?

Beats the crap outta me.....

A smart person anticipates problems and finds ways to avoid them. No models I have crafted were abused with saws in their creation. It does take a little more head scratching and some creative engineering knowledge to work in this way. But I figure it is a lot less nerve racking than attacking my latest masterpiece with a destructive and unforgiving saw.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Mike
 
Mike,

I too have been a full time pattern maker for 20 years. Working for some of the worlds leading companies.

You do it your your way I do it mine! As long as we both achieve the desired product.

Carl
 
I've used both methods, and have found merits to both. For me it all depends on the complexity of the final part line and the ease of replacing that bit that is cut away when sawing through the original. Generally I would prefer to make the part line while sculpting the original by putting a barrier between those bits that are to be separate pieces when cast. For a barrier I use something like Vaseline, or even latex rubber works well making a very thin skin between parts. The latex rubber is the kind used for making molds from rocks, or sometimes as a paint mask. It is brush-able (can be thinned with distilled water) and air dries very quickly in thin layers.

Hope this helps a little.


Ray
 
I am with Mike on this one. I think it is better to think about how the part is it to be molded and make it so it comes apart. I have not done many figures but I have been a professional model maker for about 15 years now. If you know it is going to be cast you should try and make it so it can be broken down in to easily cast parts. This is true in the toy work I have done and in the film industry work I have done. If you have a very good mold maker they can some times cast something that looks impossible to cast. but the parts almost always need a lot of clean up. If you give them something that is easy to cast the parts are always going to look better.
 
Ray, Jeff,
thanks for the input.....

i suppose there are some of us who have never really thought of this, or had the chance to ask it...

I can see how both pre planning (Such as heads separate, torsos interchangeable a la Dragon 1/35) can work, as well as cutting down parts (Like putting the saw through the fly zip to separate a figures hips [yes, I cringed typing that] would work.

I kept it a general question, as scale, complexity etc will mean different approaches for different figures...

Lots of my other research involved the Garage kit world, where the demos involved one piece kits.....

As for planes, armour etc kits, I guess that the computer design world is helping to revolutionise that field...

Cheers, & thanks for sharing
 
Hi Folks,

It seems that taking a saw to a piece fills some of you with dread. It should if that were a huge razor saw. But I am talking about a saw piercing frame. This a a skill I developed working within the jewellary trade. For those of you that are unsure, it is a saw that resembles a fret saw with very delicate blades that is used to cut out silver and gold etc when making fine delicate and filagry jewellery. You use a peg to rest the work and you cut in an up and down motion, the cut is made on the downward stroke unlike any other saw. you rotate and twist the work not the saw. It is a skill maybe I take for granted having taken many years to master. The control of the cut is quite easy once you have mastered the saw. The blades come in various grades from coarse to very very fine, so the amount of material lost is almost nothing. This is not to say I don't use the other methods adopted by the other pattern makers who have posted there methods because I do. Talc, Vaseline, cling film, these are all methods I have used to seperate parts. It's a case of doing what is needed to complete the job.

Having been a full time pattern maker for 20 years working not only in this market but the gift and art sectors of the market. Making products in all mediums from resin to gold and silver. I became a mould maker and caster also, to develop my skills as a pattern maker. So when I begin a piece if work I always know how the piece will be produced.

Patterm making is about creating an illusion, you make the peak of a cap for example appear to be very thin, but in fact is thick enough to cast. That is the art of pattern making or commercial sculpting what ever you choose to call it.

I hope this has gone some way to correct the misunderstanding of hacking at a piece of work with a saw.

Carl
 
Carl,
thanks for clarifying what was meant by 'saw'

a piercing saw is to a razor saw, the same as a handsaw is to a chain saw (not really, I exaggerate to try and get the point across....hopefully)

[and no more images of razor saws cutting blokey hips asunder :eek: ]

attached is a Google image of a piercing saw in action, looks like its doing some scroll work on a piece of jewelery wow:cool:

and a link on what the full blown tool looks like
http://www.hobbytools.com.au/prod87.htm

I think the size of the hand helps illustrate how fine the blade is....looks like fine fishing wire.....

Planet figure...the place to come to ask questions, without feeling dumb, without fear of being flamed, because we try and stay respectful.....

cheers
 

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Hi Jamie,

I think Carl has summed it up. He has spent many years developing the skill to use a piercing saw.

For starting out I'd say the pre-planning method works best. For a start you don't have to buy another tool!

I trawled through the Planetfigure forums (and many others) a few years back looking for the answer to the very same question myself, and came to this same conclusion.
What I didn't understand at the time was how all the pieces (like the arms) are held in position while you sculpt the figure. I've now got a technique, but it's far from satisfactory and involves some rebuilding after the parts are seperated!

Cheers,
Jon.
 
Hi Jamie,

That is a piercing frame in action!

It's not an easy skill to master but it saves so much time. It's a tool that gets a lot of work in my workshop.

As you can see it's a tool that once mastered is invaluable. You can control the cut remarkably well, you can pretty much put it where you want it, you can follow any line, for example when I made the "The Stampede" I cut down the spine of the horse and both cows without any problem at all.

Cheers
Carl
 
Hi Jamie,

I think Carl has summed it up. He has spent many years developing the skill to use a piercing saw.

For starting out I'd say the pre-planning method works best. For a start you don't have to buy another tool!

I trawled through the Planetfigure forums (and many others) a few years back looking for the answer to the very same question myself, and came to this same conclusion.
What I didn't understand at the time was how all the pieces (like the arms) are held in position while you sculpt the figure. I've now got a technique, but it's far from satisfactory and involves some rebuilding after the parts are seperated!

Cheers,
Jon.

I don't know from piercing saws. I do not own one and have never missed it in my time as a pattern maker. Pre-planning takes a bit of head scratching and a small panoply of techniques to get started. But once the basic concepts have been worked out it is not difficult. Personally I hate working with saws.

The way parts are kept together is by using wire pins. The trick is to work this out BEFORE sculpting the part, not after. Working at the armature stage, the wires that make up the armature itself are usually sufficient. The one caveat is to make sure you drill the holes deep enough so that the parts are not continually falling off while working with the assembled figure. I also use plastic sheet for making separations, plastic lugs to act as positioning locators and vaseline on established surfaces to act as a separating agent when forming new parts against the old. The advantage of this technique is that the parts fit perfectly with no fussing since they are actually formed against each other.

By the way, apologies to Carl Reid. Nothing I said is a reflection on Carl or his technique. It was only a reflection on my own less than "ideal" experiences in attempting to cut up a figure. In the end, the only thing that matters is the final result. Carl has more than proven that he achieves excellent results.

Yep, more than one way to skin a cat.


Cheers!!

Mike
 
I doubt anyone who has ever made a pattern or figure for casting would dispute the necessity of preplanning. However, I don't believe that this planning necessarily means that there is only one way to accomplish the goal. For myself, as alluded to earlier, my preference would be to sculpt in individual pieces without recourse to the saw. Still I wouldn't discount the value of a good piercing saw, especially if any of your pattern work is in brass, nickel silver (some other metal) or even plastic.

Patterns made for use in a high temp vulcanization process often are best made from metal of some type and silver soldered together, although green stuff is certainly an option. I know of and have known guys who always sculpt everything, and never have to resort to the use of metal, however these guys-in my experience, limited as it may be-don't usually make patterns of mechanical or machine made prototypes, railway wagons auto parts, that sort of thing. I also know a guy that makes his patterns in large part from 'white metal' blocks (and this guy has full time employment, not commission based, as a pattern maker), basically carving the parts with a rotary tool, finishing up with the addition of necessary small bits, bolt heads and the like, all soldered together. The real difficulty of metal pattern making is the assembly of multiple small bits to make up a larger detailed component for casting. Making up sub-assemblies, which really is what we are talking about, is the easy bit, parts are simply made as such, completely separate from start to finish.

Back to the topic of figures originals for production casting; I’ve seen larger sized figures broken down during the molding process by the strategic placement of temporary dams to create part lines. It works, but is very labor intensive the molds needing to be made in succession rather than all at once. I've seen guys, and have done this myself on more than one occasion, create a 'mother mold' from a single piece original; production patterns are subsequently made by chopping up castings gotten from the 'mother mold'. Again, this method works nicely but is much too labor intensive to want it as a standard technique, at least for me. Another technique that works well with sawing, and indeed preplanning, without need for repairing detail or mass lost creating part lines with a saw is; to sculpt a complete rough armature without detail or surface finish, saw the part lines and reassemble with pins (made from wire) creating a barrier between the parts during assemble. The barrier is an obvious necessity as the assembly of parts is temporary after all-Vaseline and liquid latex (as mentioned earlier), make fine barriers. After this reassembly and barrier creation sculpting proceeds as normal, almost though not quite, as if the sculpt is being created as a single piece for casting in one part. This method works nicely because of the bulk already available for sculpting on, unlike a bear wire armature. Works, but isn't my normal procedure. Typically I sculpt all the larger masses first adding those parts that are to be cast separate as the last stage with the requisite Vaseline or latex barrier between. Basically the same method advocated by Mike.

In the end what I am attempting, though probably not too well, to illustrate is that there are indeed a variety of useful techniques available to the pattern maker, many of which I have not mentioned or am not at all familiar with. What we all do is develop or learn techniques that work well for ourselves, some better than others obviously. However, if the technique adopted works for any particular individual I wouldn't, myself, be comfortable with-or even think myself qualified-to name another’s working techniques as being wrong. Besides which, whenever I run across a new technique I always, at least, give it a thought even if I don't actually try it out or, even if my initial reaction is that the technique is somehow wrong or useless.

That’s the extent of my two cent defense of any other weirdo that simply has to do things his own way, even when perceived by others to be wrong.

Best Regards All,


Ray


Ray
 
Hi Ray,

I have used most of the techniques you have described in your post. I generally do what is needed to get the job done. I often use a variety of mediums when making a pattern, this includes Brass, Pewter, plastic (occassionaly! Because of the heat involved in drying and possibly Vulcanising, makes it diffficult), Magi-sculpt, Sculpey, Wax, clay etc. All or some of which have a part to play when I make pattern. I solder both hard and soft. I of course use my Piercing frame. But thats only how I do it, others use similar or indeed different methods to achieve the end result. It's a case of what ever you are comfortable with.

Over the years I developed these skills because of the inviorment I worked in, I had access to soldering kit, piercing frames, graving tools, rolling beds etc. So it was easy to use hard materials ie; brass, pewter, silver etc because it was readily available and the old tradesmen were ther to learn from.

You see where I come from in Birmingham England, there are two locations very close to each other Birmanghams Jewellery Quarter, and Birminghams Gun Quater. Although They have all but gone now! It was a rabbit warren of emensely skilled poeple going about there trades making Guns and Jewellery to be sent all over the world. It was easy to develop the skills and to aquire the equipment. Because of the location!

Here are a couple of images of a piece, myself and an old business partner of mine made many years ago for a big company here in the UK. It was never released as product, This one I painted for the man who owns the real engine. As I'm sure you can all see there is lots of saw piercing soldering engineering and planning needed to make product like this. It was cast in PU and white metal. I sculpt also by the way LOL!!!
 

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Hi Mike,

No apologies needed my friend!
It is just healthy debate. I have never been shy when it comes to debating. LOL!
As I told you I have always been a huge admirer of your great ability and work.

Carl
 
Carl, could you please suggest me a good jeweller saw and what kind of blades to be used ? Is something like this item on eBay (# 110372236926) good enough ? I mainly need to cut very strong epoxy putty and small iron/brass tubes, thanks.
 
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Wow!

I always find it very exciting when some of the big guns impart little morsels of their knowledge and experience, particularly when they take the time to write up nice long posts! For those of us amateurs that crave that knowledge it's always so helpful...thankyou!

Jamie, is the figure you're thinking of casting the lady wearing the black Yukata, or was it just a general inquiry? If it's for your own figures I'd recommend the liquid latex method, as it's nice and cheap. The latex I use is just masking fluid (like the aero-modellers use). Sculpt the shoulder joint, then push in a 'key' (the end of a paint brush or something similar). When set paint with masking fluid. When that's dry push in a small blob of putty to make the 'male' part. When the male part has dried, seperate the parts and clean them up (just rub your finger across it and the latex comes off). Now repaint the joints with masking fluid and push together. The latex forms a strong enough bond to glue the parts together whilst your sculpting the remainder of the figure.

Thats the technique I use (and for our amateur level it works very well), all of it gleaned from previous posts on this forum.

Cheers,
Jon.
 
Over the years I developed these skills because of the inviorment I worked in, I had access to soldering kit, piercing frames, graving tools, rolling beds etc. So it was easy to use hard materials ie; brass, pewter, silver etc because it was readily available and the old tradesmen were ther to learn from.

You see where I come from in Birmingham England, there are two locations very close to each other Birmanghams Jewellery Quarter, and Birminghams Gun Quater. Although They have all but gone now! It was a rabbit warren of emensely skilled poeple going about there trades making Guns and Jewellery to be sent all over the world. It was easy to develop the skills and to aquire the equipment. Because of the location!

Thanks Carl!

Well, this explains it all. Carl had easy access to "old school" techniques learned through old hands.

I, on the other hand, did not benefit from this. My skills all started with plastic modeling which I undertook from the time I was 6 years old. Because the models I built were plastic, this was my preferred "medium" because I was familiar with it. To this day, all of my weapons and even some of my accessories are made up from plastic with the occasional bit of brass or stainless steel rod or tubing for rigidity.

My sculpting technique was borrowed from some stuff I learned from modeling magazines and articles. The only real skilled help I ever received along the way was during my time working with Terry Worster where I learned how to make molds. For a pattern maker, mold making is not a necessary skill: but the nature and limitations of the work are of primary importance when designing a figure, model or anything else to be reproduced. It is a physical process with limitations. Producers will get very upset with you if your patterns are impossible to cast! This is why a good working knowledge of mold making is important.

Being self taught, what I wasn't able to pick up from magazines or the like, I had to work out for myself. There is a certain satisfaction in knowing that you figured out how to do something skilled on your own, without the benefit of apprenticeship or mentoring. But I admit that it would have been nice to be comfortable working in wax - or to be able to make up something complete out of soldered little bits of metal. But for me, at this late date, that would mean another long slog up a learning curve without outside help.

So, I slog along as best as my limited skills allow. It works for me. That is all that matters.

Nice tractor Carl! Now see, I would have made that whole thing from plastic.....!
 
Great discussion guys. I'm glad this one has stayed civil and informative. Sometimes these things erupt into needlessly long threads without benefit to anyone. Thanks guys.~Gary

PS, That tractor is great Carl!
 
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