Cautiously Curious

[ghamilt1]

Hi everyone;

I just got back from my local club meeting where a few of us had an interesting discussion on subject matter. Perhaps I can treat this potentially sensitive subject best if I relate some of my own experiences.

I love figures of all historical time periods, but as a history teacher and enthusiast, the Second World War is my favorite era to read and research. I enjoy building WW II figures as well, and like many others, I have especially enjoyed some of the figures which depict German soldiers, both from the Wermacht, and the waffen S.S.

On a few occasions, when I had some of these figures on display in the house, my wife would ask me to put the German soldiers away when her family would come over to visit. (just Mom-in-law now, as Dad passed away a few years ago). This is because my inlaws are Dutch, and lived under occupation during the war, and I imagined she felt that having those figures on display might be a little insentsitive. Naturally, I put them away, just because I really like my in-laws, who have always been very supportive of my hobby. Dad even used to make my bases for me. It's just that I never thought about it "that way" before.

So, I was wondering if anybody else had an opinion on this, or has anyone else ever had those kind of feelings when they do a figure based on that subject? If I could put it rather crudely, and I REALLY don't intend to insult anyone or cause offense, but what must it be like to be a Dutch, or French, or Polish or even German hobbiest, and tackle a figure like a waffen S.S. man? Has anyone else ever been asked to "put those away" for a bit? Or has time healed alot of those wounds?

I am really just curious in an academic way, and this was a very interesting discussion amogst my friends at the club. So if anyone is offended, please allow me to apologize ahead of time, as this was never my intent. I would certainly hope the moderaters would delete this post if they deem it inappropriate. Thanks for considering the question, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[DaveCox]

Glenn, I've seen similar questions on several modelling sites over the years; I also know modellers in the european countries occupied by the nazis in WW2. The general opinion seems to be that it depends on the subject portrayed - an SS man in the black parade uniform is more likely to cause offence than a waffen-ss figure in camo. The latter is seen as a soldier, whereas the former is perceived as a symbol of the regime.
Personally I don't often make german subjects - not a political thing - they just don't interest me; likewise with a family and guests seeing my work on display I don't paint nude or semi-nude figures.

 

[Ulrich]

Hi

I am living in germany and I know that some people here, who lived here during this period have there problems, when they see models, picture or signs from this time. I am working in an archive and when we start an exhibition about children and the experiences, they made during the time 1933 - 1945, some of them had problems to speak about that time. And we had a great discussion about what we use on the poster for the exhibition. Because we don´t want to hurt someone with the things showing there.

And here it is not allowed to show or to use the "hakenkreuz" or the signs of the "Waffen-SS" on models or figures.

I can understand the people, which have problems with such displays.

Ulrich

 

[thegoodsgt]

Unfortunately, few of our friends or visitors take any time to look at my figures, so they probably wouldn't know to be offended!

We have many friends who are Jewish, but I don't hide my German figures. If someone said anything about them, I would simply use the opportunity to educate them and assure them that I do not sympathise with any Nazi beliefs. I would also point out the American and British subject matter in my display case to show my balanced approach to the hobby, which is really about art and military technology, not politics. I'd also show them the Confederate figures, pointing out that none of my "Yankee" friends have expressed any dismay.

My wife and I are fascinated with the entire Hitler-Jewish experience, so we have quite a few books laying around. No one has said anything about them. I think a book has far more potential for "converting" someone to become a racist than a silly little figure.

 

[ghamilt1]

Thanks for your input gents. I agree with the sentiment expressed here. I certainly haven't stopped admiring or building WW II German figures, and I really enjoy building aircraft models of Luftwaffe subjects. I suppose I will try to mindful of who's around when I put some of these on display. Of course, by living in a country that was far removed from the events, at least geographically, this isn't that difficult. Perhaps it is, after all, a matter of personal taste and not any kind of political sensitivity. Like David, I stear away from nude figures just because that's not my cup of tea, and like Steve, I can always use the figures as an opportunity to discuss an otherwise touchy subject. Ultimately, I agree with Ulrich, and would completely understand if someone reacted negatively to one of my figures because of a painful memory.

 

[bonehead]

Interesting topic!

At this stage in my life I still have no answer as to why I spend so much of my time involved with military hardware and subjects. I figure it is some queer biological tick...... Call it "original sin" if you will; for whatever reason we all seem imbued with this morbid curiosity about our own self-destructive nature.

At any rate this is completely at odds with my current personal feelings about warfare. Killing is never a justifiable thing in any way shape or form. It is morally repugnant. Yet, here we sit, day after day, glorifying the systemtized murder called "warfare".

Such murder is not the exclusive domain of the Nazis. To single them out is to feel that killing our fellow human beings is somehow justified in other cases. It is NEVER justifiable!

And this is the source of the sensitivity about such things that is reflected by Glenn's in-laws. I am very definitely not religious but I think that the popular question gets it about right when we ask, 'who would jesus bomb?' To this I think we can add: who would jesus execute, gas, hang, draw and quarter, nuke, wage war on, etc., etc.

I am still doing my "killer" figures. But this has led me to the conclusion that I should devote more time to depicting subjects that enoble other, more worthy ideas. Warfare sucks. It is perhaps the most selfish, craven, immoral thing that human beings do. I think there are better things in this wide world to say with my craft.............

Anybody with me on this????

Mike

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by bonehead@Jan 11 2006, 06:43 PM
Anybody with me on this????

Yep, very much so Mike.

Einion

 

[btavis]

I think most people who do WWII Germans are not even thinking about the brutality of that regime but instead just think the German army was really "cool looking." I think a lot of it is driven by the tank modelers who obviously have a wealth of material to work with in WWII.

Personally, I do not like glorifying Nazis so I do not do them per se. But I agree with Mike in that all of this war stuff is basically inconsistent with my personality but I too find myself caught up in the "coolness" of the military stuff. I think this is a guy thing or some arrested development on my part as there is absolutely nothing cool about war at all.

I was never in the military nor have I ever owned a gun. And yet I do this type of stuff although I am slowly drifting away from martial themes for other subjects. Aside from my inate pacificism I think exploring non-military subjects has to do with me finding relevent subjects that have not been done to death also.

As an artist I always believed that I have a social responsibility on how that art should be manifest and directed.

 

[rodsginger]

Hi all
My two bits worth
This thought opens up a whole minefield that is full of intrigue as it is of political statement and opinion, all which depends on what side of the fence you are on.
Consider myself. Here I am working in the mental health field and one day I get talking to a work colleague about our growing up. The year is 1967 and I am in training to go to Vietnam and as part of our publicity and promotion of things military that was at the beck and call of politicians, we are at a shopping mall with one of our M113s. Whilst there we got talking to a bunch of protestors who went along and burnt a New Zealand flag against the side of the APC and put flowers in the gun barrell of the .50 cal. It all made headlines etc. Lo and behold my co-worker was one of the protesters and we had a good laugh. What wasn't so funny was the Vietnam memories that came flooding back, for me it was a personal issue and her act was a political statement against something that she thought was wrong. The weird thing is Vietnam is my favourite modelling period - maybe because it is personal.
We used to run a Cambodian group in our house where all of the cause of carnage was in front of them, yet again, in miniature. Did that get people talking or what. I was accused of this and that however it did generate the ability for people to say what they needed to say and feel comfortable about saying it and as a consequence we all grew to enjoy each others company and most of us still remain friends.
Most know that since Cain and Able had a tiff over an ice block that the human ability to maim, kill and destroy is within. What I know is that I live in a country that is free and green and many would, if they had to, do whatever to keep it that way.
To me, figure modelling and history is about less we learn from our own mistakes, and not to listen to the politician when they want to wage war on those who beg to differ from our own stance and belief.
In conclusion I would say that Vietnam will evoke in me things that I thought that I had worked through and I dare say that would be the same for those that have been on the receiving end of war.
Just before Christmas I had a nephew that was involved in a three way horrific car crash. He was the only one that died and that was instant. I really enjoy building model cars, does this now mean that I no longer make cars? Cars kill more people in NZ than do wars and it takes a person behind the stearing wheel to do that. Food for thought.
To me figure modelling is about representing the facts based on research and not hiding from the truth as an artistic expression as any artist would have it - horrors and all. An example is how our own colonial wars have been misrepresented here in NZ. And sometimes the facts are just plain ugly.
Rod

 

[Jim Patrick]

Anybody with me on this????

Only somewhat. :lol: But we are all entitled to our opinions. Regardless of which side of the fence or opinion, we are entitled to our own beliefs. I FIRMLY believe this. As to me, well.........how should I phrase this? Taking the life of another human is NOT excusable in any way shape or form. That said however, I do feel it's called for at times. In a "perfect" world, people talk their problems out, not fight them out. What some people forget though (and it applies to this discussion) is that the ability to listen is FAR more important than the ability to expound ones beliefs, thoughts, prayers or even prejudices. That said, until someone discovers this "perfect" world, I'll live in the "real" world.

More on to the subject at hand........... I personally don't see a problem with the researching and desire to paint a uniform of a figure from military history. The world for centuries has idolized (even romantized) the military. It's only natural for us follow suit for something that has been nearly DNA programmed in us. Think not? Who were your childhood heroes? See? Painting an SS officer doesn't mean that you are card carrying nazi. It simply means you like the units, uniforms, etc., etc.

The fact that we consider other's feelings doesn't meean it some "dirty little secret". It just means that we consider others feelings. Now, speaking of others feelings, I STRONGLY reccomend others who are reading this remember and heed these words. This is a topic that's rich with opinions and beliefs. DO NOT trample on someone's beliefs and get some flame war started. Be respectful with your opinions and thoughts. Trust me, before a flame war starts, the "Fire Department" will put it out by removing the entire post. want it left here? Then read back a few sentences.

Good topic, KEEP IT THAT WAY!

Jim Patrick

 

[garyjd]

Great thread guys, very thought provoking. Thanks.~Gary

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Hello Figureteers!

Interesting topic.

Sometimes I think that scale-models works the same way as Rorsharsch ink spots. People sees in them, what they want to see.

There are few, if any, subjects that is totally 100% certain not to offend anyone.
If its ok to portray it in movies, books, comics, paintings etc it should be ok in miniature form.

As long as one tries to be historically correct and not to glorify war which in my opinion are the norm rather than to show the horrors.

What makes military history interesting to me is that Im fascinated by courage and comradeship. War brings out the best and worst in men.

Cheers

 

[quang]

Originally posted by Uruk-Hai@Jan 12 2006, 06:30 AM
War brings out the best and worst in men.

So does every stressful situation in war AND in peace.

All too many people tend to mistake History for 'history of warfare'. To me, a subject doesn't need to be warlike to be of interest.

If this hobby was only about sharp objects and uniforms, I might as well be playing the tuba in a mariachi band.

Q.

 

[Robin]

Interesting topic, from my own experiences I agree with a couple of statements above and disagree with some.

I can tell you in my opinion, that history is written by the winners and we will hear more about what the germans did that what the allies did. What does tickle me is that why is not what the Japanese did to allied prisoners brought up when a figure come out related to that or for that matter teh other gruesome bunches in history eg The Roman Army, Crusaders etc.

As above I think all that is being portrayed is the uniform, not all were involved in this and in my opinion should not be tarred with the same brush.

Robin

 

[Figure Mad]

I had a similar experience at Euro in 2004, working at the main entrance on the saturday, stamping everybody’s hand when they went out, so they could get back in. along came this old boy with a couple of members of his family, quite a spritely fellow, very jovial. All his family came past and had their stamps done, he held out his hand and I stamped it, he looked up at me with the smile completely gone from his face, he said ‘You know that realy reminds me of Belson’

To which there was no answer I could give....

We all have no intension of reminding these people of the sadness they endured.

We can only thank them, for the amazing history that they have given us and the lives we live today, thats why I believe that what we do, can only enhance a healthy attitude and understanding of an amazing history that we have and that they were part of

Dave

 

[ghamilt1]

I'd just like to say thanks to everyone for offering your opinions. This has proved to be a very thought provoking discussion and many of your contributions have been enlightening and insightful. All this talk has prompted me to think that maybe we do a little bit more than just paint little statues, and perhaps that is what makes this hobby a form of Art.

 

[btavis]

Originally posted by quang@Jan 12 2006, 07:41 AM
I might as well be playing the tuba in a mariachi band.

Q.

Now there's a non-military subject to sculpt.

 

[KeithP]

To be honest with you guys, I don't even want to think about this subject. Fer Cryin out loud, THAT is why I do this hobby. So, I don't have to spend 110% of my waking and dreaming time contemplating my job, house chores, etc etc etc.

All I want to do is think about finally figuring out how to paint a decent WHITE on my next figure. :lol:

I sincerely appreciate and enjoy reading ALL your comments and ideas so don't stop posting them...

Keith

 

[JCOX]

Originally posted by ghamilt1@Jan 11 2006, 02:09 AM
On a few occasions, when I had some of these figures on display in the house, my wife would ask me to put the German soldiers away when her family would come over to visit. (just Mom-in-law now, as Dad passed away a few years ago). This is because my inlaws are Dutch, and lived under occupation during the war, and I imagined she felt that having those figures on display might be a little insentsitive. Naturally, I put them away, just because I really like my in-laws, who have always been very supportive of my hobby.

To me this would be the correct course of action. This situation is more of a people (relational) question than a hobby question. Taking someone elses feelings into consideration is acting unselfishly and in accordance with true love for others, rather than doing what we want regardless of how others feel about it. This does not hold true to matters of principal, but in matters of simple differing opinion and/or taste that the other party has strong feelings towards. Boils down to a matter of love and respect.

-jim cox

 

[My_name_1s_MUD]

My wife won't let me display anything with a Swastika on it. I usually replace that decal with the German cross.