febr. news from Pegaso

[quang]

Originally posted by Calvin@Feb 16 2006, 06:46 AM

Quang, I think it could be very interesting for all the community to know what are the sources you use which does not contain pictures with a 'variable validity', but a strong, certain and invariable one.

That's an easy question for anyone who has even a passing interest in Plains Indian culture.

All the aspects of the subject is conveniently reunited in one single book:

The Mystic Warriors of the Plains by Thomas Mails

It's a good place to start with.

Everything written by Colin Taylor is also worth having:

Some of Colin Taylor's books

You can go on with scholarly studies of ethnologists like Grinnell, Lowie, Boaz... each one specialised in a tribe/nation.

There are tons of valid material all readily available. All it takes is get hold of them and READ.

HTH

Q.

 

[RobH]

Cheers for the references, Quang.

what qualifies the Thomas Mails book, for example, more "valid" than others?

Although he didn't list anything, Costas did say he had an extensive bibliography, not all I assume, digital.

 

[Calvin]

what qualifies the Thomas Mails book, for example, more "valid" than others?

I've the same doubt/question, anyway I too would like to thank Quang to point out such references, really grateful. At least, now I know that sources like the following contains references with a variable validity:

- "Travels in the interior of North America", edited by Taschen and now out of print, by Maximilian Prince of Wied and Karl Bodmer. According to the interior cover introduction, "In 1832 Maximilian Prince of Wied set out with the Swiss painter Karl Bodmer on an expedition to study the way of life of the North Americans Indians [...] While the Prince collected ritual implements, noted his observations and transcribed the intensive conversations he conducted with the Indians, Karl Bodmer created fascinating watercolours...". But maybe that Karl was a guy with an excessive artistic license feeling...

- "The Native Americans", edited by Chrysalis Books, by Colin F. Taylor and William C. Sturtevant (curator of the north american ethnology smithsonian institution). There are only 255 pages, but thank to the book format, there is room enough to describe almost all native cultures, from southwest to plain, northwest, artic and northeast. Aside the very huge number of original pictures of natives, there are a lot of plates (photos of originals/recreated) illustrating everyday manufacture, arms, weapons and so on.

Here just some small reviews about this book (borrowed from the web):

"A cultural handbook and historical survey for Native American groups in North America organized by region. It focuses on history, material culture, subsistence patterns, and political structure. Each section contains historical photos, drawings, maps, and photos of material items for at least one group from the region. There is a bibliography and a reference list at the end of each chapter. It includes indexes."

"This illustrated volume look at various cultural aspects, beliefs, key individuals and historical events in the lives of many tribes and groups of Indians. Divided into nine cultural areas, the 10 articles draw particular attention to the ways in which some of the early inhabitants adapted to living in widely varying environments, from the Arctic to the southwest. About 1000 tribal artifacts are presented and described by William C. Sturtevant of the Smithsonian Institute. Contains 250-plus archive photographs, maps, color plates and artworks. Oversize: 10.5x13<">. Annotation c. Book News, Inc., Portland, OR (booknews.com) "

 

[quang]

Originally posted by RobH@Feb 16 2006, 08:57 AM

What qualifies the Thomas Mails book, for example, more "valid" than others?

Like with History and other sciences, the study of a culture deals with primary, secondary, third,... sources.

Primary sources deal with the direct transmission from the subject. For example, a direct witness/participant to a battle is a primary source. His son to which he has told his experience is a secondary source. And so on.

Every time one takes a step further down the line, one loses a little something of the original data. There's also a risk that the original data would be 'contaminated' by the participant himself (failing memory, manipulation, ...).

A parallel would be the multiple bootleg copies of an original tape. The further you go from the master tape, the song becomes less distinct at the expense of the parasites and the white noise.

Thomas Mails' forte is that he's gathered as many primary and secondary sources he could, drawing from obscure and less accessible scholarly studies and putting them together in one single book in a language that anybody can understand.

Mails' book can be considered as a central hub from which radiates every aspect of the Indian culture one enthusiast cares to study. This is why it's priceless.

HTH

Q.

 

[RobH]

Thanks Quang, an excellent explanation of research.....I know all too well about primary research - As a Geology graduate, primary research was very easy; go to the rock - hit it with a hammer, and look at it under a microscope!!! :lol:

I guess the question is bigger. How do we, the "modelling" public, know that this (or any other book) would be a good or bad book? (other than recommendations from your goodself or others on the net). I assume, with the book in front of you, you can see the bibliography and sources listed in the book, but was this recommend to you?
It's unlikely to be a book you'll find in your local bookstore; maybe an inter library loan is possible initially.

It's a tough world!

Thanks again for the book recommendations!!

 

[Bruno]

Hallo Calvin,
I think there are some misunderstandings.
The drawings I wrote about are the drawings presented by Calvin.
This drawings you present are from the paintings of Karl Bodmer and this drawings shows a MANDAN Warrior of the Buffalo Bull Society and not a SIOUX.

For this reason the paintings you showe can't be be of any "prove" for the Pegaso SIOUX, as Mandan and Sioux are two tatal different tribes.

For this reason my statement had nothing to do with the figurine of Pegaso.

So the figurine of Pegaso is not simply mislabeld. I think it schould represent a Lakota warrior. I'm a friend of Luca Marchetti since many years and I will do some research for Pegaso Indian figurines. Unfortunately in case of this figurine I only see this figurine after it was produced.

Hi folks,
Perhapes my first staement was very emotinal. I don't wanted to look arrogant, but, sorry English is not my native language. I'm do now over 30 years research in Plains Indian history and in this way I had Native American friends, especially among the Brule-Lakota Miniconjou-Lakota and Oglala-Lakota.

It should be reminded, that until the 1960 years, any practice of culture and religion was forbidden for the Indian people. There was a constandt descruction of this culture. White "historians" defamed this people as "bloodthirtsty savages" and so on and on..
With this background it is to udnerstand that the Lakota are very easy to feel insulted by a wrong presentation of the Lakota culture. And figurines are a representation of culture.
The description "phantasy" was to hard but I would had love to see a historical correct Lakota warriorwith the quality of Pegaso. If the sculptor had asked all mistakes could be easy to be avoid.

According to the question why Thomas A. Mails books are so great. He used only first hand inforations of Indians or white peopel who lived with the Indians. He is in close friendship since over 40 years with Indian tribes, mainly Lakota and Apache. He is one of very few white people evers invited to a Sundance, a unbeivable hnour for a white person, he was even allowed to make pictures. He had access to tribal history. I had coopreated with Colin Taylor and I cooperat with scholar athropologist like Heinz Bründl, Gerd Guck, Michael Johnson and they all call the book of Miles superb.
If you are interested in Plains Indians try to buy it.

Best regards

Bruno

 

[Bruno]

Hi Rob,

I thisn your posting hit the point. How can modellers know if a publikation is good or not. This is the main problem. Unfortunately many book publisher don't care about the quailty of suche books.

If there is an interest, I can do a list of books I reccomend for a modeller if he want to paint Indians.

Very short all Osprey books by Richard Hook and Michael Johnson are superb. Forgett the books of Robinson and Mead.

Best regards

Bruno

 

[Major_Goose]

I guess the best to come out of the Labyrinth is to know what Gianni used as reference to sculpt this nice (IMHO) opinion figure .

So since i see that all of you admit the Ospreys as a good source, Gianni did good to use some of them as information and inspiration.

You can see here all Osprey books numbers and titles


Further more in my modest opinion the Figure companies are commited to use good reference for sculpting their figures and also to sculpt them good and cast them even better . But its not possible and not even their business to check if the books (especially theones from famous and approved companies) are pretty acurate .

Also is not possible for time purposes , to do a back trip to the information that the publicing company used to issue a book . I have seen PEGAsO over the years to do respect the modeller. But even in some points a bit of Artistic license was used with respect to history i dont see any bad in this.

I remember a huge issue when Pegaso Renessaince Knight from Andrea Jula was released in 75mm , and a lot of so called Experts and self called historicians teared their clothes that this kind of armor is pretty fantastic and never existing and is out of question if its fault or true.

I was so surprised to read all this that iwas almost convinced that Pegaso had done the Crime of the Century ! Well after some months and after Sain Vincent Expo , i had the chance to visit the Duomo in Sienna .

And there i saw and pictured with the digicam a lot of floor engravements that showed knights in this armor and other even more fancy . I saw my self the "live" existing reference that Andrea Jula used to sculpt this . If renaisence sculptors on the floor of a mediaeval church are not good reference , then i really doubt if any book can be one .

Closing down i think that miniature painting is a great hobby and highly related tohistory , BUT... i would not ever restrict my horizons to art for the favor of the so called historical accuracy , at the same time that half of book writers accuse or dont accept the other half who write on the same issue.

I hope i helped some

Costas

 

[Kisifer]

Well said Costas. I couldn't say it better myself.

Xenofon

 

[quang]

Further more in my modest opinion the Figure companies are commited to use good reference for sculpting their figures and also to sculpt them good and cast them even better . But its not possible and not even their business to check if the books (especially theones from famous and approved companies) are pretty acurate .

It's just a matter of priority. Depends on what you're expecting from a figure.

And there i saw and pictured with the digicam a lot of floor engravements that showed knights in this armor and other even more fancy . I saw my self the "live" existing reference that Andrea Jula used to sculpt this . If renaisence sculptors on the floor of a mediaeval church are not good reference , then i really doubt if any book can be one .

Here's a short science-fiction story. Sit back and read.

An extra-terrestrial expedition landed on Earth in a far future when civilisation has long ceased to exist. The expedition members found a roll of celluloid film miraculously preserved. They returned to their planet with the precious find. After decades (of their years), they finally succeeded to build up an apparatus with which they could view what's on the film.

After multiple viewings of the film and endless arguments, the ET scientists concluded that Earth was originally inhabited by bipeds with four gloved fingers and oversized, round, black ears sticking up their heads.

Of course, they had no means to decipher what's written on the final frame: 'A WALT DISNEY PRODUCTION'.

Quang

 

[RobH]

Costas, you are a priveldged man to have this information :lol: . Thanks for sharing and thanks to Gianni for letting you share it!

You have hit the nail on the head. How far back in the Bibliography's of books do we, the hobbyist, or even the manufacturers, go? Some books listed are out of print, may have spurious information. It's a tough one.

Maybe the manufacturers should do more than the hobbyist to make accurate figures, but they can only go so far and may not have the resources and finances to get things perfect. However, they could always use another manufacturers research!!!!!

It's very difficult for us hobbyists, who by the nature of the hobby involves an interest in history.
People often ask how they can get better a painting this or that type of technique, and the answer is always practise, practise, practise. But if we get caught up in research, we will rarely complete a piece and therefore rarely improve! A compromise is needed, and some slack from

so called Experts and self called historicians

. I'm with Costas on this one.

For those of us who can focus on a specific period of history, build up a library, visit museums and do some of their own primary research, I'm envious! My interests are far too wide to be able to do that, and I need to compromise. If I can improve a figure, great. But I need to draw the line somewhere. And practise my painting or sculpting. Balance.

Bruno. Book publishers are mostly businessmen to make money, not academics publishing their research material (which may make a good paper, but rarely a book that will look good in a shop window). I'll have to check which Osprey books I have.


Work is slow today!!

Rob

 

[Bruno]

Hi Rob,

that is the reason why I do somtimes reviews of booklets, simply to help modellers to decide what to use.

According to Costas statement of so called historians. The problem is, that there are a lot of authors who write several different subjects, from the napolenonic war to the ancient time. This author had not the time to seqarch and use original material, they made one book out of five others.

I don' t understand anything about the US civil war, napoeonic time and so ond, but I have studied history as my secound study and I'm researching now since over 30 years on Plain Indians and I cooperate with scholare athropologists and historians. Not only whtie historians, but also with Native American, like the official hisorian of the Delaware tribe. This study leads to a bibliotek of around 500 publications mainly on Plains Indians.

Why I tell this?
I know a good number of persons who had done such a researche on other subjects. I have a friend who is one of the leading napoleonic historians in Europe, another works in the museum for ancient Celts at Nürberg. These people offered their cooperation for free to figurine producers, without any respond. The answer of one producer was, that he think, a correct Celtic warrior would not sell as good as a phantasy celt, shwon in the Concord publication.

The Pegaso knights are authentic, simply because the researche wer done by two scholar histrians, Wolfgang Büche of Germany, curator of the historical Museum at Halle and Marco Guillani. Victor Konnov is cooperating with Mr. Till Weber, a German professor who is at the university of Okinawa and one of the leading experts for Samurai.

I'm sure there are muche more of suche experts and the companies only had to aske this persons.

According to the Indian fogurines I see a different to other subjects. If someone do a incorrect medieval knight, nobody is insulted. If a company do an incorrect Indian he insults this people and their heritage. This people simply tired to see Tomahawk swinging, yelling savages who don't represent their great culture.

In the past Pegaso was one of the companies who realy tried to do historical correct figurines, that was the reason I was disapointed. If someone build Ferrari you expect the quailty of Ferrari.
I have spoken wit Luca Marchetti about two projects of Indians with Pegaso and I hope it will be a good worke.

Best regards

Bruno

 

[Calvin]

WALT DISNEY PRODUCTION

Quang, for how much I force my self to understand your kind of humor, I really cant catch it.

So, the references used for the Renaissance knight are like a cartoon for the Mars visitors ? Is that what you mean ? Or it's just me having so much difficult to understand your smilies placed here and there ?

Do you have some knowledge about the Armature all'Eroica subject or are these just some more gems from your humor ?

If you can bring out something new to that old topic, I'll be very glad to hear from you. Some time ago an interesting debate about that subject appears on the El Paso Honroso forum of Augie, do you have something new that could be added, aside some smilie icon ?

Ah...! Sorry, now I got it. All the references (any kind of references, including art from the past) used by OTHERS are wrong, while the ones used by you are all from the root, like the Mose's commandments. Yes, I know that game about figures like the Reneissance knight, if you cant do it like that, shot it.

Depends on what you're expecting from a figure

This is the second time you argue that way. Do you think that suggesting to Luca Marchetti to label its figures under a new Fantasy, Pantasy, Siena Disney, etc. line could solve the problem ?

 

[RobH]

Originally posted by quang@Feb 17 2006, 05:15 AM
Here's a short science-fiction story. Sit back and read.

An extra-terrestrial expedition landed on Earth in a far future when civilisation has long ceased to exist. The expedition members found a roll of celluloid film miraculously preserved. They returned to their planet with the precious find. After decades (of their years), they finally succeeded to build up an apparatus with which they could view what's on the film.

After multiple viewings of the film and endless arguments,  the ET scientists concluded that Earth was originally inhabited by bipeds with four gloved fingers and oversized, round, black ears sticking up their heads.

Of course, they had no means to decipher what's written on the final frame: 'A  WALT DISNEY PRODUCTION'.

Quang 

So Quang, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that at best all reconstructions based on archaeological evidence and/or written accounts or paintings/engravings are, at the very least, suspect.
Of course, piecing together various parts of information will get us closer to what may have existed but fundamentally we can never know for sure.

And then of course, as you say, even primary sources can be suspect, especially if that is an individual using the spoken word.

So what it boils down to is, unless there is photographic evidence (oopps photoshop anyone?) that something existed, there is always going to be doubt about any miniature reconstruction of a subject, especially if the subject existed prior to the use of photography. No-one can say for sure, and all the research in the world will only make something more likely to be close to correct, than absolute.

It's easier to say what is wrong (Samurai Armour worn at the Battle of Naseby, for example) than what is correct.

Gosh

now, time for some smilies :lol:

 

[Major_Goose]

Here's a short science-fiction story. Sit back and read.

An extra-terrestrial expedition landed on Earth in a far future when civilisation has long ceased to exist. The expedition members found a roll of celluloid film miraculously preserved. They returned to their planet with the precious find. After decades (of their years), they finally succeeded to build up an apparatus with which they could view what's on the film.

After multiple viewings of the film and endless arguments, the ET scientists concluded that Earth was originally inhabited by bipeds with four gloved fingers and oversized, round, black ears sticking up their heads.

Of course, they had no means to decipher what's written on the final frame: 'A WALT DISNEY PRODUCTION'.

Quang

I am pretty sorry, but thinking of my self as a normal IQ owner, i am reading a lot of time this post from Quang and try to relate it with anyway (bad or good) with the fact i have said , with the example of the Rennaisence knight , and the historical - not fantastic evidence i saw with my own eyes and have in pictures in my computer . But i cannot !

I understand that many statements, and phrases of this whole post may be ironicals from some one to someone else, and maybe could be considered offending.

One issue i see many people do not understand is that in a conersation like this THAT NO ONE KNOWS THE FULL TRUTH or POCESS the WHOLE ACCURACY , its better to try to be friendly and exchanging information and ideas in order toget a better background of knowledge and information stock .

So i am not playing the game , defending my self why one or the other posted smilies or anything after my posts . but i have a serious question.

After the Ospreys (globally approved as OK) that were used to make this Indian figure , is it a fantasy one or no? Ihave to know this before i start painting it .

Thanks

Costas

 

[RobH]

Costas, I believe Quang was referring to the fact that your experience showed you engravings on a floor. It doesn't necessarily make it so; what is the age of the floor related to the armour for example, who engraved the floor - had that person ever seen the armour or did he have a creative mind etc etc. Quang used a very extreme but easily understood example

One issue i see many people do not understand is that in a conersation like this THAT NO ONE KNOWS THE FULL TRUTH or POCESS the WHOLE ACCURACY , its better to try to be friendly and exchanging information and ideas in order toget a better background of knowledge and information stock

Exactly as I said in my previous post.

After the Ospreys (globally approved as OK) that were used to make this Indian figure , is it a fantasy one or no?

Yes, I'd like to know too?

 

[Calvin]

Luca...........we do not allow personal attacks on planetfigure

Guy, please man, mine is a personal attack ?

What I see here is a manufacturer joking about the supposed walt disney style feature of the pieces of another manufacturer. How do you define it ?
So this is what is allowed while requesting an explanation is a personal attack ?

 

[quang]

Costas:

I didn't mean to be ironic (at least not in the previous post).

I just wanted to demonstrate that it doesn't not suffice to look at things. You also need to understand what you're looking at and question the validity of what's in front of you.

It's not because one finds a Xena toy sword among genuine exhibits in a museum that one can conclude that there were plastic swords in 15th century. Maybe it was put there by some prankster.

Rob:

I didn't not discuss the Pegaso figure once in this thread and don't intend to do so. All I'm discussing is the validity of one's references.

As for the Ospreys, 'Warriors of the Little Bighorn 1875' is an excellent reference. I don't have the Osprey Campaigns 'Little Bighorn 1875' but from the picture posted by Costas, the warrior carries his bowcase in the wrong way (opening on the right instead of the left side). Check out the Richard Hook plates in 'Warriors of the Little Bighorn 1875' to see how it should be done.

Luca:

My reference to Walt Disney was NOT directed toward a person or a figure manufacturer.

I just used it as a stereotype/universal reference so that anybody understands my little story. Obviously, you don't.

Quang (look ma, no smilies)

 

[RobH]

Originally posted by quang@Feb 17 2006, 08:23 AM

Rob:

I didn't not discuss the Pegaso figure once in this thread and don't intend to do so. All I'm discussing is the validity of one's references.

I know you didn't, and never implied you did; you just used the science fiction story immediately after quoting Costas and his experience with the engraved floor. I was merely interpreting the Sci Fi tale, as I saw it in the context of the quote, and Costa's reply which reference that figure!

Me too; The validity of one's references is exactly what i'm discussing!

 

[Bruno]

Hi Mr. Luca Piergentili,

sorry bu I don't understand the way of your argumentatin whe you write: "All the reverence used by others are wrong, while the one are used from you are come from the roots".

Sorry, but you used wrong references in this discussion, when you present a Mandan warrior as a prove for a Lakota.

When you study history, the first what you leran is to quote and access the sources and than start to write.

Hi Ron,
According to Osprey, except of the Osprey Indians of Richard Hook and Michael G. Johnson, I can't recommend Osprey Indian books as a reliable resource for modellers and painter. See my comment on the book "Comanche" at Planet Figure. The low quality you can even see by the used bibliography.

The booklet Little Bighorn 1975 is based on outdated material and mainly third quality white sources. It is full of old mistakes, corrected by the new battle field archeology. The book dont uses original indian testemony, like Amos Bad Heart Bull, White Bull ore Michinos excellent work on the battle. He don't use Joseph Marshall III, "Soldiers faling into camp", he overestamate the number of Lakota, Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors and so on. He don't look the scholar worke of the "Austrian Military Research Departement", a worke considered at this moment as one of the best description of the battel by military historians. The book ignores the interviews mad by deMalli with Cheyenne warriors and so on...The book makes the impression of a hastly written book, without any deep research.
I also agree with Quang, the painting on the cover represents the qhole quality of the book. But it in the baper basket!

Again, I simply want to support people to represent the heritage of the Indian people in a right way. The Native Americans had been so often defamed by white authors an Hollywood, who create the fairy tale of the cruel savages, that after all the oppression this people had to go through and still had to, their herritage should be treated with respect and honoure.

Best regards

Bruno