Helmet question

[Mariner]

You guys might laugh at my language , but I've noticed on many figures of Teutonic knights, they have those large 'horns' protruding from the helmets.
I'm curious as to their purpose, and how anyone could fight a battle with those sticking out of their heads?
I've wondered the same about the caparisons (if that's the right word) their horses wore.
Mary

 

[Figurenfreund66]

Hi Mary

These helmets with the crest was worn only for ceremonial purposes, as thesewere more of a hindrance in the fight.
The valances of horses, however, had several functions, one for the protection ofanimals and especially that of the riders seen in the battle.
Where it not for even very expensive and elaborately embroidered valances were used.
However, there were also documented exceptions.

best regards
Hendryk

 

[Jazz]

I may be wrong about this but horned helmets, especially when seen by Vikings, were mainly used in ceremonial events, not warfare. Teutonic knights had their family (heraldic) crest on top of their helmet. This was used by knights so that their friends could recognise them in battle.

 

[Mariner]

I knew you guys would know, thank you

 

[renarts]

Hey Mary,
The teutonic knights used the horns both as armorial or heraldic display and as a form of intimidation. It must have been very frightening for local militia and levy troops to look upon a conrois of germanic knights arrayed for battle and see these horned monsters ready to ride you down. (ok for a religious military order to slaughter the unbelievers and pagan in the name of god, but we'll use demonic imagery to really drive the point home ) It was pretty common to use heraldic crests for parade and tournament. Definitely for funerary achievement and simple versions possibly for battle. Ulrich von Lichtenstein once loaded a heraldic crest with jewels and coins and when it was struck in a tournament they came spilling out onto the tournament field, and actually caused a riot from the spectators jumping from the gallery and from the side of the field to scoop up the prizes like a medieval pinata.
The caparison (horse livery) was a decoration for identification but also doubled as a form of protection from sword cuts, arrows and when used over a gamboised blanket was pretty effective as horse armor.
Here is a link that will let you see some period examples of horse caparisons in their various forms. Some are nothing more than decoration, others are functional armor. There are several primary documentation sources so you see a variety of periods. http://larsdatter.com/caparisons.htm
Enjoy!

 

[Mariner]

Wow, Mike, you're a walking medieval encyclopaedia! It's a fascinating time in history. I just got a set of Black Prince stencils from Tommi Worton and hope one day to paint that wonderful Crecy model. But the history is the fascinating part. Thanks so much

 

[MCPWilk]

I may be wrong about this but horned helmets, especially when seen by Vikings, were mainly used in ceremonial events, not warfare. Teutonic knights had their family (heraldic) crest on top of their helmet

There's no documentary or archeological evidence that Viking helmets ever had horns.

Mike

 

[Helm]

Latest theory on the Viking horns I heard ( at least believable ones ) was that it may have been the cheek pieces of the helmets folded upwards which does make some sense

 

[MCPWilk]

For my version of a Viking helmet, please see: http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=66533

Mike

 

[Vikingz]

Very nice mike, will this version be available to the public when its finished.

 

[MCPWilk]

I believe so.

Mike

 

[Hans]

The horned Viking helmet is a invention of the 19th cent. romatic era. There are none found and none descripted. The sometimes seen sample in the Kopenhagen National museum is Bronze Age and even this are not "horns".
Mediveal horned crests are in the archaeological record, as fas as I remember there are two at least,but if there a five I would not be surprised. If these crests where worn in battle is highly debattable. Grave stones often shows them, but not always. These crests where extremely light and it should be no problem to wear them. But these crests where highly individualistic as beeing part of the coat of arms. I really don't think the "THE teutonic order" used them as a part of sign of the order. In fact, knights of the Teutonic order did not wear personal coat of arms and therefore no crests.

 

[renarts]

The idea of a large crest for commanders in battle is a sound one. The need for identification as well as the ostentatious display allowed quick identification on the field and quickly identifies commanders especially among similarly liveried combatants, The example of the 14thc. great helm of Albert von Prankh (lower left) is such that it is clearly an applique that can easily be removed/replaced) and would provide quick recognition in tournament, parade, or preparation on the field for rallying of troops. While the order itself may have worn the crests for pomp and panoply and not in battle, there is certainly enough documented evidence of similar acoutrement associated with the order. A reasonable expectation and accepted recognition of use if it meant being killed outright or being recognized as ransom worthy. As for them being integrated into the structure of the helmet as so many figures depict....I find it hard to believe. Having had my own injuries from crests that were too well attached to a jousting helmet, a very "separatable" version would be the order of the day.

The only helmet I have seen with any sort of strong, integrated protrubence has been what has been labeled the "Waterloo Helmet" (because of its discovery near waterloo bridge) and it is an iron age britanic celt helmet that has large cone shaped features to either side of the skull. Something more al la Lady Ga Ga or Madonna than practical.

 

[Hans]

Beside the Prankh helmet in Vienna the only original horned crest known to me is the sample from the Churburg, Southern Tyrol, Italy. The Churburg holds a large collection of armour including the oldest piece of mediveal plate armour. And it has this crest. The pedigree is unknown to me, as a complete publication is not available today.

(H.T.photo)
As you see, it's made like a cap which simply was put over the (sugarloafed?) helmet. Please compare that with the effigy of Burkhard von Steinberg in the previous post by Mike.

The european antique has around 10 pieces (more or less) of fixed "horn" crested helmets, from the mediterrean plus two examples from Denmark.
The danish samples are bronze age and where used for some sort of cereminial plays (which is depicted with miniatures!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veksø

And there are several samples from Greece and from italy with a broad range of dating. All these "horns" are flat.

Northern Italy, around 400 BC

http://photodiarist.com/blogpics/2007 04 06/16.jpg

Greece, around 600 BC, I think.

At last one picture from our local Germanisches Nationalmuseum, a northern italic piece of around 500 BC. These protuding devices maybe the sockets for horns (from horn or from metal).

H.

 

[MCPWilk]

The helmets displayed above predated the Viking era by over a thousand years. The Vikings and Anglo-Saxons certainly used horns as drinking vessels, but the horns as depicted in modern culture and in opera could only have been an encumbrance in battle. I suspect that many of the ornamental crests seen on knights' helms were more for the tourney or jousting field than the battlefield.

Mike

 

[Hans]

I was getting uncertain if the effigy of Burkhard von Steinberg is showing a crest of the "churburg" type or if it is the mantling on top of the helmet, between the horns. So I took fresh pictures of this effigy, shown below. It's the proof that it's the crest and not some sort of mantling.
Here they come:

 

[renarts]

Excellent info Hans. Thanks. I've always been a big fan of the Steinberg effigy. It is certain that the crests were common in tournament and panoply. The documentation provided by illumination and period illustration is also helpful but I also suspect that some of the crests portrayed are part of the artists full portrayal of patrons and personalities. Books like the Manessa, Luttrel psalter, Bedford Hours, Beauchamp Chronicles, Grand Chronique etc are valuable resources but I wonder now if the use of crests in the portrayal of figures are an attempt to further identify illustrated patrons rather than accurate depictions of those individuals.

 

[Hans]

I don't think that they are accurate depictions, Mike. The faces are far from individualistic and in most cases too young. And it is also not clear if a shown panoply was really possessed by the deceased.
I have done some research on 14 cent. plate armour effigies, starting with Rezzo von Bächlingen.
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fm1566331a.jpg
and found out that there are several others, following the same iconographic program, including panoply and even faces. Only the parts of the coat of arms where different. I think that the mason did have some sort of catalogue which matched fashion, price range and so on. Therefore the panoply programme also followed "effigy fashion" and not necesserely the real content of the armory. Just my two

,
Hans