Ist Grenadiers Flag 1815

[Jaybo]

This is a wonderful discussion and one of the reasons I enjoy this website. I do not own the Pierre Charrie work that Ivo makes reference to but I do have his work "Drapeaux et Etendards du Roi". If anyone is interested in the colours and standards of l'ancien regime, it is indispensable and highly recommended.

 

[MalcC]

Yes but here I count 762 fringes on the flag, it seems ( according to corporal Bonneblague ) that there were 764

Mirosoft I have it on good authority, that the two fringes had been shot off. LOL

Malc

 

[smudger1960]

Who can actually say this never happened ! NOBODY

 

[smudger1960]

Mirosoft I have it on good authority, that the two fringes had been shot off. LOL

Malc

Hi Malc

I like that,but when you really think about it that's what this site is coming to,670 or 680 fringes ?,there's always some who will say different,Graham Scollick and Carl Reid are very good friends of mine and I'm having a moment now and I feel very sorry for Graham to have to deal with this,it's a stunning piece by Carl and I think it's one of the best napoleonic pieces I've seen,that's why I chose it as my focal point,there's a lot more I'd like to say but I'm governed by the rules of this site

 

[megroot]

Hi Malc

I like that,but when you really think about it that's what this site is coming to,670 or 680 fringes ?,there's always some who will say different,Graham Scollick and Carl Reid are very good friends of mine and I'm having a moment now and I feel very sorry for Graham to have to deal with this,it's a stunning piece by Carl and I think it's one of the best napoleonic pieces I've seen,that's why I chose it as my focal point,there's a lot more I'd like to say but I'm governed by the rules of this site

You gotta finish it Brian. I quit AFV because they where counting rivets. I believe we must not going that way.
Graham and Carl did their jobs with the reference they got, And what came out whas one of the best nappi's i've ever seen. The face, the lost in his eyes. AWESOME
Moz made some stunning pieces also.
These two together and with Moz are the top of sculpting and casting at the moment in my humble opinion.

Marc

 

[smudger1960]

You gotta finish it Brian. I quit AFV because they where counting rivets. I believe we must not going that way.
Graham and Moz did their jobs with the reference they got, And what came out whas one of the best nappi's i've ever seen. The face, the lost in his eyes. AWESOME
Carl made some stunning pieces also.
These two together and with Moz are the top of sculpting and casting at the moment in my humble opinion.

Marc

Marc
I will finish it,there's no doubt about that mate and in my opinion it's right,i feel very angry today and very sorry for Graham and Carl who put so much effort into what is quite simply an outstanding piece.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Sorry Brian. I am not getting the anger thing. I thought this was a civil discussion over accuracy, not the trashing of someone's work. It is generally accepted that Gra/Carl's old guard bust is one of the premier pieces of the last few years. No one is saying otherwise. But if we can't politely talk about accuracy without folks taking it too personally this site will have lost a lot of its value....at least to me

Colin

 

[smudger1960]

Sorry Brian. I am not getting the anger thing. I thought this was a civil discussion over accuracy, not the trashing of someone's work. It is generally accepted that Gra/Carl's old guard bust is one of the premier pieces of the last few years. No one is saying otherwise. But if we can't politely talk about accuracy without folks taking it too personally this site will have lost a lot of its value....at least to me

Colin

Hi Colin
It's a criticism of graham and Carl's work and people have said otherwise,everybody is different Colin and sometimes I do take things personally but that's me,it wouldn't pay for us to be all the same would it,the reason I feel upset is because graham is thinking of pulling the piece,now when it gets to that stage then that's when the site starts losing value to me

 

[Martin64]

Hi Gra,
My two cents: Withdrawing a piece as a producer should be a decision guided by commercial and not emotional reasons. So don`t do it. This is a hobby and as long as our little figures aren´t bleeding, suffering, sh#tting their pants, dying etc. it is historical fiction anyway. The guys that were fighting on those battlefields would shake their heads in disbelief about aggravated discussions on uniforms, gear, standards...fringes..

Cheers, Martin

 

[BarrieHynd]

I don't want Gra to withdraw it either and have sent him a PM with my reasons.

Barrie.

 

[carl reid]

Graham mate, don't remove the piece from production. It will still sell, and if this discussion is the reason it slows or stops selling then so be it. You was thinking of removing it anyway. So nothing is lost mate.
I'll give you a call tomorrow mucka!

As for folks taking things to heart. Its easy to say ignore it when you're not the one who has invested many hours, much effort let alone quite a chunk of cash to see the piece discredited in this way.
You see when Graham and myself began this piece. Graham poured over all the research he had, and together we created this piece. It was done in good faith.
so you see the pursuit of accuracy at the cost of discrediting a piece, just to prove a point, or how knowledgeable you are carries casualties. It may be seen as collateral damage by some, and you should have researched properly, and I guess thats a fair comment. But I know how much effort went into the research of this piece, not to mention the work on this piece, and let me tell you it was alot!

Carl

 

[MalcC]

Smudger

Apologies if you wre affended by my jest reply to Mirosoft s post.


I too am a good friend of Graham and Carl's, so there's no way I affend them either.
The bust itself is one of the best on the market, if not the best
In fact it's on my bench being prepared, as well as an article being produced for it too.

I have been following the thread with interest for that reason.
But if folk can't make light hearted comments, which you'll find on several threds, the perhaps this forum is not for me.

Malc

 

[Funky50]

Have to say I have this bust and any perceived historical innacuracies make not the slightest difference to me and I would hazard a guess to many other painters either ,it is still a wonderful bust to paint and the market place would be a lot poorer without it Graham as would many cabinets......surely every figure ever released can be nitpicked to death if that's what the pedants want ...I just want to see busts and figures of this quality as often as possible and feel this constant rivet counting to be hugely detrimental in this hobby especially when it reaches the point of a producer pulling a bust of this quality.......Kevin

 

[Gaudin]

I am amused how, despite having started most brilliant, collected and respectful AND FRUITFUL historical reference discussion this site has seen in years, we somehow end up with personal stuff, ego's and complaints about rivet counting... again!

Is it a sign of effort that is futile? Can we not hold it together for long enough?
Or should moderators have more power to cut flood out?

 

[smudger1960]

malc,I wasn't offended and as I said,it fact I found it funny,perhaps I didn't word it correctly

Brian

 

[Waterman]

I've got a case full of figures going back over many years, and I suspect every one of them is historically inaccurate in some way or other. Thinking of dumping the lot now, and becoming a bit of a recluse. There again no, I didn't buy them for their 100 per cent accuracy, I bought them because I liked them, and I enjoyed painting them, and when they were finished they made quite a nice focal display. If I was in Graham's shoes, I would not show any of my products on PF, and set myself up as a whipping post for the Rivet Counters, and Historical Experts , who in my mind have an hidden agenda, that of destroying someone else's livelihood . They may well be right, but no one can be absolutely sure, and in that case they should treat it for what it is, A Piece of Art.

 

[Old Pete]

Lets face it we are never going to know for sure unless there is one of the old guard hidden away like the knight in Indiana and the last crusade who might read this and tell us for sure.all we can do is make an educated guess.if you dont like the flag on the bust you can always scrape it off and paint your own

 

[TADATSUGU]

Thank you Gaudin, I agree with you, and you get it.

Didn't I say at the start that I did not intend this to be an opportunity for further personal attacks? What is the point of this site if errors cannot be pointed out. If it only exists to say how great we think everything is, it just becomes an ego stroking excercise.
Yet again, someone interprets that I have a hidden agenda. It's unbelieveable!
For probably the twentieth time I have to say. I am not an expert. Did you hear that? - I am not an expert.
I am a button counter, that's why I buy and seek out reference. What is wrong with that?
If you have just completed a model then find a book that shows that an error has been made. do you complain to the Author or Publisher?
Ironically, I have actually been corresponding with Graham over this and have offered him my support. I do not think he should withdraw the piece and have told him so. I have even told him that I have been considered buying it myself, with the intent of changing it to a depiction of 1814. So in no way do I think his sculpture is a poor piece of work.

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, it seems to me that some people just can't seem to "handle the truth".

 

[MalcC]

Hi Brian.
I must have misinterpreted your post, and thought I'd caused offense.
Just for the record folks my version is staying as it was sculpted.

Malc

 

[megroot]

Thank you Gaudin, I agree with you, and you get it.
I am a button counter, that's why I buy and seek out reference. What is wrong with that?

Ironically, I have actually been corresponding with Graham over this and have offered him my support. I do not think he should withdraw the piece and have told him so. I have even told him that I have been considered buying it myself, with the intent of changing it to a depiction of 1814. So in no way do I think his sculpture is a poor piece of work.

Well, after all the damage you have done it seems a good idea for me that you show something about your work here. Beside that, buy the bust and painted it historically correct.
So we all can see how it will end up with all the shortcomings corrected that you mentioned.

Marc