WIP La Garde Recule - Waterloo 1815

[carl reid]

If the preference was to conduct this discussion via Private message, then why wasn't the original post conducted via PM....
It makes me question the motive!

Carl

 

[TADATSUGU]

OOPS! I've done it again dad! (a Dick Emery reference, in case you wondered )
Do I sense a little sarcasm here Gra30? I didn't intend any criticism of Brian's talent and have since replied to him by PM. Didn't you read the bits where I said "I think your work on this is terrific" or "I don't mean to be critical of your work, which I greatly admire"?
For me this is not an issue of who is the best modeller - between me and him, he is! I also fail to see how the game of proving that "my models are better than yours" would change historical fact - let's stick to the point.
It always amazes me that any effort I do make to simply correct what I see as "historical error" is rapidly met by responses of a personal nature. At the end of the day, what I am saying is either right or wrong.
I do not consider myself to be an expert but I do read a lot of reference. As it has been requested, I will try to post my references tomorrow, together with some illustrations, although I have already been through all of this on previous threads.
I did not mean to suggest that the Colour bearer figure was dynamic, although the other figures, and therefore the project as a whole, would therefore be so.
Why do you think the Ist Grenadiers would have considered themselves defeated, (as opposed the the army as a whole) when they remained unbroken during the battle and served as an effective rallying point to the other Guard Regiments and to Napoleon himself. Don't you think their Elan and spirit would have remained largely intact in acheiving this? I do!
And, as you did ask, I see no reason to assume that the colour, if carried at all at the battle (and I have never found any confirmation of this) would have been torn in half? (not withstanding flights of fancy about stray Prussian cannonballs that have already been put forward, thank you!)
I will always welcome, and look forward to any other research material which conflicts with my viewpoint and I see no reason to get upset about simple debate. If you can prove me wrong, I will willingly accept the correction in the interests of depicting what actually happened rather than what people used to think happened.

 

[smudger1960]

OOPS! I've done it again dad! (a Dick Emery reference, in case you wondered )
Do I sense a little sarcasm here Gra30? I didn't intend any criticism of Brian's talent and have since replied to him by PM. Didn't you read the bits where I said "I think your work on this is terrific" or "I don't mean to be critical of your work, which I greatly admire"?
For me this is not an issue of who is the best modeller - between me and him, he is! I also fail to see how the game of proving that "my models are better than yours" would change historical fact - let's stick to the point.
It always amazes me that any effort I do make to simply correct what I see as "historical error" is rapidly met by responses of a personal nature. At the end of the day, what I am saying is either right or wrong.
I do not consider myself to be an expert but I do read a lot of reference. As it has been requested, I will try to post my references tomorrow, together with some illustrations, although I have already been through all of this on previous threads.
I did not mean to suggest that the Colour bearer figure was dynamic, although the other figures, and therefore the project as a whole, would therefore be so.
Why do you think the Ist Grenadiers would have considered themselves defeated, (as opposed the the army as a whole) when they remained unbroken during the battle and served as an effective rallying point to the other Guard Regiments and to Napoleon himself. Don't you think their Elan and spirit would have remained largely intact in acheiving this? I do!
And, as you did ask, I see no reason to assume that the colour, if carried at all at the battle (and I have never found any confirmation of this) would have been torn in half? (not withstanding flights of fancy about stray Prussian cannonballs that have already been put forward, thank you!)
I will always welcome, and look forward to any other research material which conflicts with my viewpoint and I see no reason to get upset about simple debate. If you can prove me wrong, I will willingly accept the correction in the interests of depicting what actually happened rather than what people used to think happened.

David
If you wish to continue with this subject can I please ask you to start your own discussion in the correct forum and not on this one,also you mention about your own references being requested,again I would ask if you create your own thread in the correct forum and not continue with it on mine.
Brian

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys ,

Accuracy is questioned ...for me it's essential to get everything as far as is possible , like many I have a good library and spend msny hours referencing , printing stuff off x referencing etc ....

Brian and Gra will continue to have my respect for the details they put in , for me this piece or should that be pieces shows this in every respect .

This will be a fantastic piece when finished and awesome when painted in Brian's great style ...bring it on

Nap

 

[pgarri27]

F'ing funny to me gents, that such comments can raise such ire. Like a'holes, everyone has an opinion, and should be allowed to express it without coming under attack. I do agree that since Tadatsugu in his opening remarks knew he would most likely be offensive and since he requested rebuttal via PM, perhaps he should have sent the original message via PM. Maybe he just enjoys getting folks riled, LOL. His remarks have generated a lot of response.
But for you Brian, no one can take away that you are creating an outstanding piece of art, and if there is a little artistic license, intended or not, the result is a creation that is admired by all of us, even by David in his own words.
The only ones who can accurately tell us what was what on the battlefield are those that were there 200 years ago. Damn that they didn't have Matthew Brady in 1815.
Brian, your piece is shaping up to be a real beauty, but didn't the guy to the left of the standard bearer have a mole on his left cheek?

 

[TADATSUGU]

I came back to the site today to post my reasons for raising the issues being discussed and to give my references.

Carl ( I have nothing but admiration for your work), has now questioned my motive - simple - to help other members correct what I see to be an error, (no hidden agenda, no x files) and I have tried to explain this to Brian in reply to a PM he has sent me.
The reason I did not start the thread as a personal message is that I am relatively new to the site and not very computer literate - I didn't know how to! Also, although some people seem to think otherwise, my comments, as I have just said were intended to be helpful to all members (who may have become encouraged to start their own models based on Brian's work).

Brian has now asked;
"If you wish to continue with this subject can I please ask you to start your own discussion in the correct forum and not on this one,also you mention about your own references being requested,again I would ask if you create your own thread in the correct forum and not continue with it on mine".
I am getting very confused here. seriously!
What is considered the correct Forum for this? If I give my research sources to a PM it does not get to others who may also want to see it. If I start a thread in the Lounge most members there will not know where I'm coming from. if they read it at all.

pgarri27's final comment;
"but didn't the guy to the left of the standard bearer have a mole on his left cheek? " is funny, and I take it in that spirit but it does also seem like another veiled personal attack based the comments I have made.

I am quite happy to post my sources, as I was intending to do today, but I am now very tired of the pointless personal attacks and sarcasm. It brings to mind similar responses to Tecumseh's recent Posts which led to him wanting out. (I'm going nowhere)
Can we just forget the personal comments, imagined or otherwise. Please clarify where you want me to post my sources and information if you still want me to and I will, I do not want to repeat it all in multiple arenas.

 

[Gra30]

I sent you a PM yesterday Tadatsugu, as I would like you to explain your comments on the flag inaccuracies further, however in respect of Brians wishes, can we keep it away from his thread. There are no personal attacks from what I see, just asking you to back up your comments privately.

 

[ellie]

Hi Kept out of this but thought I would just like to say that Our old Guard came under the same scrutiny as Graham's, Our figure (Ellie's Miniatures) was based on an old Hinchclife figure and was well researched by Moz. it was my fault that I put a date to it when I should have left it off. I know Moz did lots of research with regards to our flag and as far as we know it's correct.

I'm sure both Brian and Graham have done their home work with regards to this, and it should be remembered that this is a work of art and features something that may have taken place at the time. we do not know what happened so we have to have a bit of artistic licence. I for one love both Graham's and Brian's work and look forward to seeing this master piece grow.

Cheers Guys

Ian

Ellie's Miniatures

 

[TADATSUGU]

I am now only pursuing PM correspondence on this where invited to do so.
Gra30;- I will get back to you ASAP with my research sources on the flag.
David

 

[megroot]

Keep up doing this great work Brian.
I like and follow every single step on it.
It is so inspiring.

marc

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Would the standard be in tatters who know's ! But one thing is for sure re the Napoleonic era ; all sorts of artistic licence has been used by just about every artist re these wars , so a little in the modelling world is totally forgivable should it arise. Brian is a good friend of mine and like me an avid napoleonic era enthusiast so would do as much as possible to get things accurate , but even museum curates hash things together re this era .
This is a super project and I look forward to the finish . Lets leave the rivet counting to where it belongs

 

[Waterman]

And,should not the figures be flesh and blood instead of resin with white metal detailing pieces? I mean what has been done is extremely good but I am just striving for accuracy that's all. Plus also I know that the Old Guard got a mauling at Waterloo, but no where does it state that they ended up with the lower half of their bodies missing and them fighting on little pedestals.

 

[Tommi]

Wow! How did I miss this one. This is going nothing but outstanding once you start getting the brushes to work.

Let all the bull shit ride over you and press on with what looks to be another masterpiece

Cheers
Tommi

 

[Claude Portsmouth]

Come on Guys give it a break...................I know both David and Brian well, Brian as a great modeller and David as a mine of detailed information on the Napoleonic period. Both are extremely passionate about what they do and are extremely nice people.....Do we have to have this mud slinging every time someone puts forward a contrarian view....PF just seems to be so full of hostility these days. Everyone jumps in and things go from bad to worse.

It's a great forum full of talented people with different skills and similar interests at heart can't we just accept it as that and live together a little?

Claude

 

[smudger1960]

Hi Guys ,

Accuracy is questioned ...for me it's essential to get everything as far as is possible , like many I have a good library and spend msny hours referencing , printing stuff off x referencing etc ....

Brian and Gra will continue to have my respect for the details they put in , for me this piece or should that be pieces shows this in every respect .

This will be a fantastic piece when finished and awesome when painted in Brian's great style ...bring it on

Nap

Many thanks kev for your support and kind comments

 

[smudger1960]

F'ing funny to me gents, that such comments can raise such ire. Like a'holes, everyone has an opinion, and should be allowed to express it without coming under attack. I do agree that since Tadatsugu in his opening remarks knew he would most likely be offensive and since he requested rebuttal via PM, perhaps he should have sent the original message via PM. Maybe he just enjoys getting folks riled, LOL. His remarks have generated a lot of response.
But for you Brian, no one can take away that you are creating an outstanding piece of art, and if there is a little artistic license, intended or not, the result is a creation that is admired by all of us, even by David in his own words.
The only ones who can accurately tell us what was what on the battlefield are those that were there 200 years ago. Damn that they didn't have Matthew Brady in 1815.
Brian, your piece is shaping up to be a real beauty, but didn't the guy to the left of the standard bearer have a mole on his left cheek?

Many thanks mate and your right,who knows what went on 200yrs ago,we go by referances and historical readings but nibody for sure really knows,i had tge same thing with my napoleon bust,some historians say his eyes were blue,some say brown and some say bluish grey,but guess what,i had a so called expert on napoleons eyes trying to tell me different,again who knows what colour his eyes were,tgey dont comment in the piece itself just what they think is wrong,these sort of people f--k me right off and tgeres a few of them on here,tgey never post anything but are quick enough to critisise

 

[Richie]

Hi Brian,
Great project, superb conversions. For a self confessed non sculptor you are making a bloody good imitation mate. Looking forward to watching this one develop and then seeing you bringing them to life with brushes. It has smudger's battle weary weathered style all over these. Excellent mate.
cheers
Richie

 

[smudger1960]

I came back to the site today to post my reasons for raising the issues being discussed and to give my references.

Carl ( I have nothing but admiration for your work), has now questioned my motive - simple - to help other members correct what I see to be an error, (no hidden agenda, no x files) and I have tried to explain this to Brian in reply to a PM he has sent me.
The reason I did not start the thread as a personal message is that I am relatively new to the site and not very computer literate - I didn't know how to! Also, although some people seem to think otherwise, my comments, as I have just said were intended to be helpful to all members (who may have become encouraged to start their own models based on Brian's work).

Brian has now asked;
"If you wish to continue with this subject can I please ask you to start your own discussion in the correct forum and not on this one,also you mention about your own references being requested,again I would ask if you create your own thread in the correct forum and not continue with it on mine".
I am getting very confused here. seriously!
What is considered the correct Forum for this? If I give my research sources to a PM it does not get to others who may also want to see it. If I start a thread in the Lounge most members there will not know where I'm coming from. if they read it at all.

pgarri27's final comment;
"but didn't the guy to the left of the standard bearer have a mole on his left cheek? " is funny, and I take it in that spirit but it does also seem like another veiled personal attack based the comments I have made.

I am quite happy to post my sources, as I was intending to do today, but I am now very tired of the pointless personal attacks and sarcasm. It brings to mind similar responses to Tecumseh's recent Posts which led to him wanting out. (I'm going nowhere)
Can we just forget the personal comments, imagined or otherwise. Please clarify where you want me to post my sources and information if you still want me to and I will, I do not want to repeat it all in multiple arenas.

Post tgem in Historical Referances please

 

[smudger1960]

Hi Kept out of this but thought I would just like to say that Our old Guard came under the same scrutiny as Graham's, Our figure (Ellie's Miniatures) was based on an old Hinchclife figure and was well researched by Moz. it was my fault that I put a date to it when I should have left it off. I know Moz did lots of research with regards to our flag and as far as we know it's correct.

I'm sure both Brian and Graham have done their home work with regards to this, and it should be remembered that this is a work of art and features something that may have taken place at the time. we do not know what happened so we have to have a bit of artistic licence. I for one love both Graham's and Brian's work and look forward to seeing this master piece grow.

Cheers Guys

Ian

Ellie's Miniatures

Many thanks ian for your comnents and support on the piece itself,much appriciated

 

[smudger1960]

Keep up doing this great work Brian.
I like and follow every single step on it.
It is so inspiring.

marc

Many thanks marc,glad you like it so far mate