Last witness to Hitlers death dies
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Martin64
A Fixture
Interesting to read the "tailored" version of Rochus Misch`s memories. May he rest on peace.
Colin_Fraser
PlanetFigure Supporter
I collect Gman autographs (resistance only) and have always been puzzled by the clamour to acquire Misch's. While he was probably just a soldier doing his duty, his proximity to Hitler IMO does not render his signature of particular interest or value. Nor does the fact that he is the last survivor of the freak show in the bunker make him an interesting historical personage in my view. At least he won't get hounded by autograph collectors any more (to Misch's credit he was very generous in providing his signature to pretty anyone who requested it).
Colin
Colin
Martin64
A Fixture
The introduction of Rochus Misch`s memories "The last witness" is written by Ralph Giordano who had suffered severly as a jew under the Nazi regime of Hitler. He comes to the conclusion that while he despises the Nazi-ideology and the people who supported it he would be willing to shake hands with Rochus Misch.
Rochus Misch himself was never a member of the NSDAP - his wife was always supporting the socialists and had a political carrer after WW 2 - he lived quietly for a long time after the war without being hounded by collectors or film writers but after the hype about the last moments of Hitler he had to hide his telephone number and address (which was up to then entered in the public telephone register) because of the many calls and requests. Therefore he decided to publish his memories - not for becoming famous or else.
Being shot from behind by Polish troops while still being under the protection of the white flag or being later exposed to extreme tortures by Russian NKWD is described in his book with the same neutral perspective he looks upon the events he witnessed as Hitler`s bodyguard. This might be disturbing to some readers.
He did not still call Hitler the "boss" but recalled that Hitler was called the boss back then among the servants and bodyguards. Quote from his resumee: "I do not condemn the young Rochus Misch for being obidient and keeping himself out of trouble but that this attitude came so naturally still makes me pondering (about myself)"
He described that the bodyguards were picking up many things Hitler talked about with his guests but when Himmler visited him both regularly talked first without any other witnesses. In this context he stated that the murder of jews was "never a topic" in his presence.
I recommend to read his memories - the shortened version of the newspaper tries to tell a different story - the "SS man, with a rigid posture, broad shoulders and neatly combed white hair" does surely fit much more into the expectations of the readers than some quite normal person who - like Colin said - "just did his duty". Therefore again (with correct spelling
) : May he rest in peaceAll the best!
Martin
Colin_Fraser
PlanetFigure Supporter
Thanks Martin. Helpful.
Colin
Colin
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NickM
A Fixture
It has it's place though, Carl
Martin64
A Fixture
He never stated that he was a stand-up guy (and I never stated that btw). I bow to your broad knowledge about the access to informations concerning killings within the SS organisation back then. They should of course have just done a google search and the truth would have been there!
NickM
A Fixture
So what would I infer from your initial "May he rest in Peace"? This phrase is a sign of respect. Do you respect this SS soldier? Why?
Given how commonplace and open SS brutality was in the occupied territories, are you saying no word got back to those within the same organisation in Germany? I don't claim to have a broad knowledge of the subject, just a healthy skepticism...
My reasons for hating the SS are my own and I don't mean to enforce my views on others. I respect those few Germans who asked questions, who disapproved, who resisted. However, I take issue with anyone respecting those that blindly did their duty in the SS.
Colin_Fraser
PlanetFigure Supporter
Nick - I can't recall if the SS was or was not convicted of being a criminal organization at Nuremburg. But I also know from my reading that despite a much higher likelihood of SS units committing atrocities than Wehrmacht, not every SS man was a war criminal. Many in late war were high quality conscripts. Obviously this does not apply to Misch. But Misch did spend the war as Hitler's personal staffer and could not have commited crimes as he was not in the field. He was likely also out of touch with his peers. It is a known fact hat Hitler was very circumspect about discussing the holocaust, not wanting to leave any smoking gun pointing to him. And Misch would not have attended Fuehrer conferences in his capacity as bodyguard. I suspect he was a relatively harmless soldier who had the fortune to be at the shoulder of one of history's most important characters. But as a looker on I find him uninteresting. I say "let God 'me ou."
Colin
Colin
Martin64
A Fixture
I read his memories and I tried to explain my point of view about him by quoting contents of this book in my previous post. Your general allegations that cause a certain blindness towards him or others who served in the SS - NOT because they wanted to kill helpless people and commit crimes - and who weren`t part of these actions but from today`s self-rightous perspective "surely had to know about the brutality of the organisation" is truely your own issue.
I assume that you did not read his memories but prefer to believe in your prejudices. So no need to go any further about it.
The SS was regarded as a criminal organisation at Nuremburg btw. There was just one exception: The Reiter-SS. The reason for the exception was the fact that one of it`s leaders was Prince Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld married to Princess - later Queen - Juliana of the Netherlands. He could not become a war criminal like his comrades but to disguise the reason for this decision the international court at Nuremberg simply removed the whole unit from the list of warcriminals. So if anyone believes in the wisdom of these verdicts he can gladly build and paint members of the Reiter-SS - they are not stained by these allegations proven at Nuremburg and so they can be respected and finally rest in peace.
NickM
A Fixture
Hi Colin, well said and you are right. Yet elements of the SS organisation were responsible for most of the German atrocities - running of the death camps, anti-partisan retributions, the butchery during the Warsaw Uprising to name but a few.
As a result, two generations on and the SS is still a contentious topic for some.
Martin, sorry mate - maybe I am prejudiced, but your reverential "May he rest in Peace" still seems inappropriate and the respect seems unwarranted too.
Cheers
As a result, two generations on and the SS is still a contentious topic for some.
Martin, sorry mate - maybe I am prejudiced, but your reverential "May he rest in Peace" still seems inappropriate and the respect seems unwarranted too.
Cheers
Pilgrim_uk
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 12, 2012
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Martin correct me if I am wrong but is that the same prince who served with the RAF during the war. Helped the dutch resistance and actively spoke out against the Nazi's as well as founded the World wildlife foundation. But I digress.
Uruk-Hai
PlanetFigure Supporter
This whole thing is more complicated than being an evil man just being in the SS.
Nothing is as easy as passing judgement long time afterwards.
Non debateable is that Misch is indeed an important source for history due to his position during the war
Cheers
Janne Nilssn
Nothing is as easy as passing judgement long time afterwards.
Non debateable is that Misch is indeed an important source for history due to his position during the war
Cheers
Janne Nilssn
Martin64
A Fixture
Yes, it is him. Avid hunter, founder of WWF, involved in ivory smuggling, supporting silently Apartheid, strongly involved in Lockheed scandal of the Netherland`s Airforce, .... controversial personality. What nevertheless only matters about my previous post is the fact that his officer`s rank in that unit is the only reason why the Reiter-SS was spared from being condemned with the rest of the SS. So obviously his saintly presence until 1937 had an ongoing effect and prevented his comrades from becoming warcriminals.
Martin64
A Fixture
Nick, you are prejudiced and I did not ask/expect that everybody over here shows respect to someone like him who passed away - it is just my view after reading his memories. The worldnews report does not give a fair abreviation of his book and his life. I still appreciate that you edited this post and I accept your opinion.
Pilgrim_uk
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2012
- Messages
- 230
Indeed a nasty business with the million pounds in bribes he had taken but reportedly donated to the WWF as you said a controverisal personality. Didn't the Reiter SS ( it being only a social riding club to attract Prussian elite) not exist for most of the war? (1940 onwards) Hence the ruling at Nuremberg that only active ss units were outlawed. (Thus creating a loophole for SS officers that they can declare they are Reiter SS.)
Interesting Stuff indeed.
Interesting Stuff indeed.
Ferris
A Fixture
Respected or not, Misch's passing illustrates 2nd world war survivors are slowly but definitely fading into history.
Personally, I find the stories of 'small people' more interesting then those of their bosses, so thanks for posting the link.
Adrian
Personally, I find the stories of 'small people' more interesting then those of their bosses, so thanks for posting the link.
Adrian
NickM
A Fixture
I'm not really prejudiced, mate. As I said previously, the SS and the role it's elements played is still a contentious issue for some, with good reason and no matter how blameless the individual soldier may be. I hope you'll understand that and keep it in mind next time.
Lets just get back to painting figures...
