Last witness to Hitlers death dies

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Pilgrim_uk said:
Indeed a nasty business with the million pounds in bribes he had taken but reportedly donated to the WWF as you said a controverisal personality. Didn't the Reiter SS ( it being only a social riding club to attract Prussian elite) not exist for most of the war? (1940 onwards) Hence the ruling at Nuremberg that only active ss units were outlawed. (Thus creating a loophole for SS officers that they can declare they are Reiter SS.)

Interesting Stuff indeed.
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The members of Reiter SS were documented like members of other units of the SS. So no real loopholes except the loophole created at Nuremburg. SS was in general about Elite at that time and that was the reason fo many to join in - the wanted to be part of the new "guard" and did not volunteer for crimes.
At Nuremburg all members of SS - regardless of their indidvidual actions were "outlawed" creating the opportunity to "rightfully" state that they are criminals - if they did not take part in person "they must have known" what was going on.
The Reiter SS was transformed and lost it´s initial importance but before that change the Reiterstandarten 15 and 17 took part in the guarding duties at concentration camp Dachau what cannot be said about other units that were "outlawed" as a whole. - Social riding club??? Up to today in my liberated country you are socially banned when just a previous involvement in the Waffen-SS is getting known. Think what would have been the problem for Prince Bernhard if he would have become formally a warcriminal. Therefore he always tried to belittle his role within the Reiter SS (and NSKK) although he had already gotten his personal loophole at Nuremburg.
As you said this is interesting stuff but I will stop here because it is just loosely related to the initial topic.
Cheers, Martin
 
NickM said:
I'm not really prejudiced, mate. As I said previously, the SS and the role it's elements played is still a contentious issue for some, with good reason and no matter how blameless the individual soldier may be. I hope you'll understand that and keep it in mind next time.
Lets just get back to painting figures...
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Nick you are judging somebody without knowing facts about his life and his views and you are doing this from today´s perspective just because he was part of a certain organisation. If I got you right I shall keep in mind next time that no SS soldier can publicly be respected over here although even a person like Ralph Giordano - one of the victims of the Nazi regime - was able to respect Rochus Misch - maybe because Mr Giordano read his book and knew exactly what it means if you are not being judged as an individual human being and if you automatically loose basic rights or simply respect - " no matter how blameless the individual (soldier) may be".
I will not let others decide what I can write or whom I can respect - the same goes from my side for other members with different/opposing opinions of course. We maybe should keep that in mind, mate!
That said I will finish hopefully my new hobbyroom today and return to the bright side of life.
 
Martin64 said:
Nick you are judging somebody without knowing facts about his life and his views and you are doing this from today´s perspective just because he was part of a certain organisation. If I got you right I shall keep in mind next time that no SS soldier can publicly be respected over here although even a person like Ralph Giordano - one of the victims of the Nazi regime - was able to respect Rochus Misch - maybe because Mr Giordano read his book and knew exactly what it means if you are not being judged as an individual human being and if you automatically loose basic rights or simply respect - " no matter how blameless the individual (soldier) may be".
I will not let others decide what I can write or whom I can respect - the same goes from my side for other members with different/opposing opinions of course. We maybe should keep that in mind, mate!
That said I will finish hopefully my new hobbyroom today and return to the bright side of life.
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Isn't frustrating when an entire group is demonized for the actions of individuals within that group. Don't you just hate that?

Sense the sarcasm
 
ChaosCossack said:
Isn't frustrating when an entire group is demonized for the actions of individuals within that group. Don't you just hate that?

Sense the sarcasm
Click to expand...
Ha,ha - thanks, it made me smile (no sarcasm on my side till here!). - If you get caught with the wrong full color in the wrong place nobody will think about your values as an individual. So here we go again. Will send you a PM when I get some more time.
All the best!
Martin
 
ChaosCossack said:
Isn't frustrating when an entire group is demonized for the actions of individuals within that group. Don't you just hate that?

Sense the sarcasm
Click to expand...
I wouldn't trust anybody who was a member of the Taliban nor would I trust any member of the IRA.Of course if one of them wrote a book that he wasn't one of the baddies i'd take that with a pinch of salt.
Brian
 
Ok - one last time - but I don`t see me bite on that topic again in the future - it makes no sense if the discussion is not based on facts but emotions. To be fair the majority of SS recruits was not conscripted into the SS but volunteered. The difference to Taliban, IRA, Partizans or todays so called terrorists/insurgents was that they fought as soldiers. The regular SS-volunteer wanted to join an Elite formation and not anything like a (motorcycle)gang that enjoys the reputation of outlaws. The crimes committed by SS-troops mostly cannot be regarded as actions of individuals because relevant orders were given regularly through chain of command. As an individual within that chain of command your options to stop these actions were usually limited - most of the time down to zero.
Therefore I cannot respect the SS as an organisation (likewise I cannot respect OMCG`s as organisations) but I can respect individuals and individuals have to be judged according to their own views, actions and maybe limited possibilities. To condemn everybody in general just because he is/was part of an organisation is pretty close to those lunatics that assess the value of people by their race.
Rochus Misch did never state that he was a good person but he gave an honest account of the way he became one of Hitler`s bodyguards and told his recollections of historical events and his own fate without falling into self-pityness or glorifying the past. He was never interested in politics and therefore did not care about the political convictions of his own wife who was raised in a socialist family. When once one of her relatives was arrested and sent to a concentration camp Rochus Misch requested support from Hitler and the relative was released. Once again I recommend reading the book to get a better idea what somebody was able to realize about the Nazi regime at that time - even if he was so close to Hitler but not directly involved in Nazi crimes.
Still I am not sure how Rochus Misch would feel about our enjoyable productive discussion held from the distance of another time - maybe he couldn`t care less.
Wish a nice evening to all of you out there! Will work another time on my hobby room and hope to show one of my finished projects in the near future!
Martin
 
Martin64 said:
Ok - one last time - but I don`t see me bite on that topic again in the future - it makes no sense if the discussion is not based on facts but emotions. To be fair the majority of SS recruits was not conscripted into the SS but volunteered. The difference to Taliban, IRA, Partizans or todays so called terrorists/insurgents was that they fought as soldiers. The regular SS-volunteer wanted to join an Elite formation and not anything like a (motorcycle)gang that enjoys the reputation of outlaws. The crimes committed by SS-troops mostly cannot be regarded as actions of individuals because relevant orders were given regularly through chain of command. As an individual within that chain of command your options to stop these actions were usually limited - most of the time down to zero.
Therefore I cannot respect the SS as an organisation (likewise I cannot respect OMCG`s as organisations) but I can respect individuals and individuals have to be judged according to their own views, actions and maybe limited possibilities. To condemn everybody in general just because he is/was part of an organisation is pretty close to those lunatics that assess the value of people by their race.
Rochus Misch did never state that he was a good person but he gave an honest account of the way he became one of Hitler`s bodyguards and told his recollections of historical events and his own fate without falling into self-pityness or glorifying the past. He was never interested in politics and therefore did not care about the political convictions of his own wife who was raised in a socialist family. When once one of her relatives was arrested and sent to a concentration camp Rochus Misch requested support from Hitler and the relative was released. Once again I recommend reading the book to get a better idea what somebody was able to realize about the Nazi regime at that time - even if he was so close to Hitler but not directly involved in Nazi crimes.
Still I am not sure how Rochus Misch would feel about our enjoyable productive discussion held from the distance of another time - maybe he couldn`t care less.
Wish a nice evening to all of you out there! Will work another time on my hobby room and hope to show one of my finished projects in the near future!
Martin
Click to expand...

Martin - you are going to piss off some of our more law abiding bike riders with your generalized bashing of their collective character, especially when apologizing for the SS In the same sentence. I think the point is that you can 't judge a person's character solely through their affiliations.

Leave it at that.

Colin ( the non bike rider one)
 
OK, without sarcasm and in the hope of avoiding a bloody shitstorm like this in the future...
There's another more important point here Colin, that I think has still been missed. The issue is bigger than Misch.
Martin, the discussion is based on both facts AND emotions – you are failing to respect the latter, when you should.

Misch may well have been a decent man. I’ve read enough to realise decent men existed in the SS, particularly late war (Luftwaffe and Navy transfers). However, they all still wore the SS deaths head – a symbol STILL synonymous with brutality under the Nazis, and this is where tact is required and the main issue lies.

Martin, just because Ralph Giordano forgave, do you expect all those others who suffered to follow suit? That is a big ask and not one you are in a position to expect. You are of course absolutely free to respect Misch if you wish. But I am asking you to show tact and recognise millions suffered under the SS, and do not want to hear a member of the organisation publicly and reverently honoured by a statement like “May he rest in Peace”!

In 1943, my wife's grandfather was plucked off the street in his town outside of Warsaw by the SS, bundled into a truck with other Polish men and taken to Germany for the duration of the war as a slave labourer. I don't believe his family knew what had happened to him for quite some time after he disappeared. He was enslaved and brutalised, but his experiences were still quite tame compared to many who suffered under the SS. However, the tears and trauma were still there 60 years on. He has passed so I can no longer ask him, but from what I know he would not be ready to hear somebody pay homage to ANY member of the SS, and neither am I.

I think this should probably warrant your respect more than Misch does.
 
I agree that the the rest in peace comment was a personal opinion of another poster that I would have preferred had been left private but it's only his opinion and he is entitled to it, especially as he has actually read Misch's memoir.

I also would not belittle the suffering of anyone who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. My only real interest area in WWII is the German Resistance against Hitler as I have a monumental amount of respect for those who gave up their lives trying to bring down the regime, even at the risk of being remembered as traitors. That study requires a rather large awareness of the regime's crimes and an awareness of who knew what about Nazi crimes and when.

My comments were only related to broad brush condemnation of individuals only and that point was made. There actually was at least one SS man (Kurt Gerstein) who may have been an active resister. There were also resisters who clearly committed war crimes ( e.g. Arthur Nebe). My view is let God sort them out.

I think you have slightly transplanted another poster's presumed respect for Misch onto me. If you read back, you will see that I regard Misch as an irrelevant man who became the focus of a rather silly level of hero worship. To me this is inexplicable and I did not at anytime declare or imply a level of respect for him. I did not know him and knew very little of him. I do know that the crew making the film Valkyrie refused go meet with him even to get additional historical perspective. I save my respect for rather more important characters in history.

Thanks Nick.

Colin
 
Ah, now I know why the movie Valkyrie had those annoying historical inaccuracies.
Incredible, you don't talk with a witness because you don't like him.

Adrian
 
Adrian - beg to differ. Valkyrie IMO is the most accurate historical film ever to come out of Hollywood. Rather than bore the herd I guess we should discuss that via PM if there is interest :)

Cheers

Colina
 

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