LOSS OF A MEMBER

[Martin64]

I've left PF because of what it's slipping into. One of negativity, (in my opinion).

This is the reason why I think this.

Take the Hussar thread for example.
It generated 5500 views and 130 comments. This was effectively to waych piece systematically discredited.
Unyet a new release barely gets 1000 views and a handful of comments.
So basically I don't want to be part of something where savaging a someone's work becomes box office!

Just for the record: the piece got so far 39 likes (among them the likes of people referred to as "a§§hole brothers" "rivetcounters" etc. that systematically discredited Moz`s work in your eyes).
Nobody so far questioned anything beyond one small piece of garment - which is easy to remove if needed for the sake of accuracy - on an otherwise splendid figure. Nobody was not praising Gra for his willingness to add extra parts and several commenters already announced to buy one copy when it becomes available regardless of that gillet-discussion. I completely miss the alleged negativity here in spite of the attempts to stirr the pot when the above mentioned titles were brought up...

IMHO it would be great to build and paint that figure and see Graham and Maurice putting out many more nice figures and have you back on this forum showing your excellent workbench pieces and having an open minded forum where every kind of hobby related comment is welcome - but sometimes you obiously can´t have it all.
My last post on this matter. All the best!
Martin

 

[Ferris]

I had missed the hussar thread and just had a look to see what all the fuss was about. Really don't get why this one caused such a stir in the end. It started very civilized, and turned fussy when it was made into a case of rivet counters vs dont-cares in general. Then it becomes emotional by posters feeling a need to protect the manufacturor and sculptor. All this time the manufacturor, that could have had some reason to be annoyed , remains calm, positively responsive and unaffacted....

My whole take out of this is not that PF becomes more negative, but that more and more people take offense at the slightest bit of criticism, even if factual and not directed at them.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[TADATSUGU]

David is taking way too much credit for my decision. Here's why. I didn't sculpt the hussar. I have no vested interest, except its sculpted by a friend amd manufactured by a friend

David, if you are referring to the hussar, it wasn't even Carl's sculpt. That was a Moz piece.

Yes Colin, in the heat of the moment I did confuse Moz's piece with Carl, as the incident's I was referring to had involved the same participants and followed the same pattern of argument.
Carl, I did not intend to take any credit for you leaving, I hope you don't. I only meant that the thread in which you announced you were leaving grew out of one of my comments.
In the cold light of a new morning. I am heartened that some of the responses show that some people do get it, but I'm still saddened that these things get out of hand.

It is good that people support their friends work but this can always be done by personal messages of support to the injured party. Breaking into a technical discussion to vent outrage only diverts the thread (yes, the irony is that is what is happening here). There seems to be a simple solution to this - just keep responses to the issues raised. If it is a question raised about accuracy, ask for clarification or submit contrary evidence. If it is opinion on quality of a piece simply say why you disagree.

Carl, if you are still reading, please reconsider leaving. It is always valuable to have a commercial sculptors view on their pieces, it can often help resolve misconceptions and it is good to have that insight into a sculpt. Although I am a stickler for accuracy I am also happy for anyone to model one of the hundreds of uniforms that vary from the norm if it is backed up by documentation.

Commerciality however, cannot be the primary concern of a site like this. Most of us are amateurs and we probably all agree that the hobby is an art form, but we don't want to mimic the Art world itself, where IMHO, it largely becomes the name of the artist or the value of the artwork which leads the Market, rather than the work itself.

 

[Perseas]

I totally agree with Adrian, this forum is and exists for this purpose, for everyone being able to say his opinion
(following the rules by the administrators) like or dislike a piece but also being polite with constructive criticism
and support his opinion with facts. Negativity is part of this world, so it will be part of this and every forum, the
main idea is to make a synthesis of every opinion and move on.
All this (short) time i am a member i found this forum very helpful cause i see different color techniques and masterpieces from sculptors coming to life by painters i admire. I always leave my feedback because i feel this way.
Diversity always was, is and will be the base of synthesis and this is what this forum is, a common base for
every modeller, sculptor and company.

 

[Waterman]

I don't know what all the pro longed fuss is about. Graham is supplying extra parts so that you can have the Regt of your choice and it be correct??? If that's not what you want,then don't buy it. No body sets out deliberately to produce an inaccurate piece, quite the opposite. I think that Moz's Hussar is one of the, if not the , finest Hussar figures I've ever seen. The pose the arrogance, everything about him has been so well captured and he should be applauded for sculpting it. That coupled with CGS superb casting brings another nice piece to us modellers. Now if you are still unsatisfied then I think perhaps you are in the wrong hobby. Nobody has picked up on the fact that he is clothed in resin rather than cloth leather and fur, if you want complete accuracy, but now I am taking the urine.

 

[stu]

I just think its sad that somebody so talented is no longer going to add to this site. I would have thought there were more people like wayne saying WOW what is happening.

Carl i for one will miss our banter on here but i can ring u buddy !!

Stuart

 

[DEL]

I just think its sad that somebody so talented is no longer going to add to this site. I would have thought there were more people like wayne saying WOW what is happening.

Carl i for one will miss our banter on here but i can ring u buddy !!

Stuart

I would comment more Stu but for once I like others I suspect, am speechless and am concerned I would end up being offensive to some people who are as entitled to their position and opinion as any of us ........ It's a lot more than sad when a valued member and modelling friend feels he has to leave the site. For me and the vast majority of members this is a major loss and significantly devalues the site.
Derek

 

[stu]

I would comment more Stu but for once I like others I suspect, am speechless and am concerned I would end up being offensive to some people who are as entitled to their position and opinion as any of us ........ It's a lot more than sad when a valued member and modelling friend feels he has to leave the site. For me and the vast majority of members this is a major loss and significantly devalues the site.
Derek

Too true Del.

As all those that know carl from our euro giggles and deep conversations this is not just a wee huff...its just not good. Carl is one of the most helpfull people on this site.

Look at the recent sbs he did....i asked he said yeah sure mate...bang it was done !!

I personnally learnt loads..posture being key to everything as without posture ..without atmosphere imbibed into that ...all you have is a dummy. A well dressed one maybe.

Passion just left the forum as far as this is concerned

Stuart

 

[DEL]

Too true Del.
Passion just left the forum as far as this is concerned
Stuart

Hopefully not ......... there's a place here for accuracy AND artistry.
As long as we don't get a Roman with a Kalashnikov, I go with the art every time.
And in Carl's case that's whats been lost, artistry ...... the opportunity for all of us to talk directly to an
artist about our passion.
Where else do you get that level of accessibility?

 

[brian]

Sad news Carl.

 

[megroot]

Hopefully not ......... there's a place here for accuracy AND artistry.
As long as we don't get a Roman with a Kalashnikov, I go with the art every time.
And in Carl's case that's whats been lost, artistry ...... the opportunity for all of us to talk directly to an
artist about our passion.
Where else do you get that level of accessibility?

And there has nothing more to be said.
So true.

Marc

 

[Mark S]

I'm very sorry to see a situation develop that might see a member such as Carl who is not just widely considered to be an excellent sculptor but even more widely and even more importantly known as a good bloke and a mate.

Shit happens here from time to time,....all of us who are lucky enough to have been involved with this forum for many years will have seen and been involved in heated scraps over the years.....I've seen many disputes but fortunately have never been involved in any myself. ......

I remember a time when Maurizio Bruno and Yuri Serebryakov were regular contributors to our forum as well and unfortunately they don't drop in anymore.........so I'm sorry to see another master go, but hopefully he'll still be contactable through PM.

And let's face it........if you did lose your real member you would be very concerned about who could sculpt you a new one......and if Carl had enough putty he's the man I'd go to.

 

[Gra30]

Sorry to see Carl gone, it is indeed sad when we lose a member of this high standard. I still do not get why critisms have to be posted publicly and with such a crusade to prove a point, but that is just me,the guise of passing on information doesn't wash with me when it is prolonged so much.
As Stu has said, there will be no more previews, new releases will also be released on Facebook and the website before posting here. Hopefully this will give some publicity before any negative comments are given.

 

[Mark S]

There's less control over "negative comments" on facebook than there is here.......any joker across the planet can jump on facebook, at least the comments here are restricted to members.

 

[Gra30]

There's less control over "negative comments" on facebook than there is here.......any joker across the planet can jump on facebook, at least the comments here are restricted to members.

Certainly not from my past experience, the comments are also restricted to your own circle of friends. I have never seen a negative comment within my FB modelling community, people seem to respect and appreciate pieces for what they are, not what they aren't. There are a wealth of modellers out there who don't even bother coming on here.

 

[Mark S]

But perhaps if you are relying on the opinion of a small group of close friends you are not getting an accurate cross section of the potential market though, Graham.

But I may be wrong because people like your close friends will probably be the ones likely to buy anyway.....it's a hard one to work out really.

 

[Gra30]

Those on it and within the community on there know what I mean. A large proportion of sales do come from there. They are not close friends but friends within a community like this, just not quite as eager to pick holes. I think the accountability of a real name has a lot to play, and that all can see your posts under your real name

 

[Mark S]

I think your right Graham,....what we may indeed be discussing here is 'how much of the interaction, fellowship and promotion of product of PF has been taken over by FB...............and will more and more of that activity gravitate that way.........the PF/FB war is bloody and real.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

FB posted product releases get cross shared onto other modelling, wargame, history and reenactor forums and with other friends that may not even know PF exists. I know because I have done it myself. But there is also a sizeable portion of the 40+ male demographic that won't touch FB with a barge pole and that is the main demographic active in our hobby. You need both to maximize marketing opportunities. Luckily both FB and PF are free.

I agree that there are few negative or critical comments in FB. I think its more due to the fact that most just hit like or post a twitter length comment. Not much substantive discussion to be found there.

Finally, on FB you may find out more about your friends' political and world views than you really care to know.

 

[Gra30]

As you say Colin, both platforms hold the key. The discussions can be very informative and productive, it depends very much who you are engaging with, there are quite a few members from here on there and dare I say, all over 40. I have some friends that I engage with who I class as world class modellers and before FB I could only read about them in magazines