More Polish Lancer Questions

[Jim Patrick]

Ok, for pictures of the Pegaso figure as painted by Pegaso, I'll refer you to my earlier question on this figure.
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1798
The references I'm using are: "Napoleon's Elite Cavalry", paintings by L. Rousselot "Le Garde Imperial" by Cdt. Bucquoy and Rousselot's plates numbered 47,65 and 75.
Ok, the questions are these. If you look in the picture of the figure you can see his manteau-capote (sleeved cloak) wrapped around him. My first thought was that this is a blanket because of it being so bulky. I guess that it could be his sleeved cloak but I don't think this would be so bulky. Just me though and not that big of a deal. Now look on the back of his saddle. See the "item" strapped on top of the portmanteau/valise/haversack (sleeping roll, not sure which it is)? I was assuming this would be the sleeved cloak but it is possible for this to be the cape portion of the cloak. If it is, shouldn't it be an off white/grey color instead of crimson? Possibly a crimson stripe because of the collar or the openings but entirely crimson? I'm not sure about this. The only picture I can find remotely close to this is by L. Rousselot (plate #90 in the Rousselot book). It shows this as all crimson but I'm really not sure as to what this is supposed to be or if it's even the right color.
The next question is about the absence of the aiguilletes and epaulettes on his left shoulder. The only reference I can see where the Lancers did not wear these is a rather obscure picture by Bucquoy on page 136 in the aforementioned book. In no other plate can I see where the Lancers in marching order would go without these. Is this right or wrong?
Also, I noticed that, from my previous question on Lancers and how the lance was supported, there is also a support on the left stirrup. I was always under the impression that the lance's were always carried on the right side. What would be the reason for placing another support on the left stirrup?

As always, Thank You for taking the time to read my mindless dribble ,
Jim Patrick

One more question (sorry, I forgot). Would the overcoat for the Polish Lancers be mor of an offwhite or a light grey. Iv'e seen it paintes so many ways and the color prints are just confusing me.

 

[amherbert]

Hi

Hardly 'mindless dribble'.

It appears your research calls into question the research done by the sculptor of this figure. On MedRom, the recent Pegaso Celt was discussed, and it appears to be a mix of 1000 years of Celtic clothing. The pose and 'look' of the lancer interest me, as does the Celt. It appears historical accuracy may be going by the wayside. Different sculptors, so we can't lay the blame at one person's door!

Looking at the pics here:
Pegaso Models Chevau-Lancier Leger
My guess is the bedroll over the shoulder is a blanket rather than an item of clothing. It looks quite shapeless and very large.

Examining the item you're concerned about on the portmanteau reveals to me that it strapped under the top flap. That's why it's crimson. I don't have the figure, but that's how it looks in the photos on Pegaso's website.

The absence of aguilletes and the epaulette I can't explain. Artistic licence? He lost them on campaign...

Do you have the figure?
I had it on my wish list, but it's rather expensive for those who buy me such things (including myself)!!

Cheers
Andy

 

[Jim Patrick]

Thanks Andy. Yes, I do have this figure and it is in progress.
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1922
You can see where I hadn't started on the figure yet. He IS primer gray now but not much else. I want to finish the horse first. Excuse the pics as well. Theyr'e a little out of focus. On the sculpters defense, I must say this is a FINELY sculpted figure with one of the better horses I have ever seen sculpted in 54mm. However, with that said, I'm not altogether sure about some of the items in question. I'm pretty sure about the aiguillettes and epaulettes in that they should be there. Probably not a hard thing to do for someone with even a LITTLE experience with putty but I'm not that person :lol: . Perhaps it's time for me to cut my teeth so to speak. Maybe the "item" on the portmanteau can be seen a little clearer in my pictures. It doesn't appaer to be under the top flap. I thought this too. If the pics aren't clear enough, let me know. I can take some more and post them.

Thanks,
Jim Patrick

OK, I went back and looked closely at the Pegaso pics and you could be right. It could be a flap that sits above the portmanteau and it merely has something tucked under it. Now I'm completely confused. :lol:

 

[amherbert]

Interesting.

On your pics it looks like a separate flap of cloth over the rolled item. That's not how it looks in the Pegaso figures.

The pose and look of the figure have intrigued me. I suppose a simple change of the chapska (sp?) to a line lancer's helmet is out of the question...

Cheers
Andy

 

[Jim Patrick]

The pose and look of the figure have intrigued me. I suppose a simple change of the chapska (sp?) to a line lancer's helmet is out of the question...

Hmmmm, I'm not sure. I din't even think about that.

Jim Patrick

 

[amherbert]

Hi Jim

You need to get your hands on the latest issue of Figurines (#58)

There are two Uniformology sections dealing with Lancers. There were 'Polish' line lancers attached to Cuirassier regiments. These guys did not have the big epaulettes etc! I believe the figure from Pegaso represents one of these 'lesser' lights rather than the Lancers of the Imperial Guard.

I posted a News item about the issue which I hope will be posted soon.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Dani A.]

Hi,

I agree the author intended a strong "campaign look" for this trooper - hence details like the unkempt portmanteau, with a piece of equipment protruding under its lid.

Probably the omission of aiguillette and épaulettes follows the same line, but I believe he may have taken a step too far with this - these were élite badges, and it would seem they were worn with all orders of dress. At the very least, it would be very unrepresentative, judging from available reference. There is another possibility - maybe a Young Guard squadron trooper is depicted (although if so, this is unacknowledged) - usually these units lacked some accessories; in the Young Guard Polish Lancers squadrons, only officers and trumpeters sported the aiguillettes and épaulettes.

BTW, from the photos it would seem the czapska top part is too small.

The figure can't be painted like a line lancer because of some differing details, like the schabraque. Some conversion work would be needed.

HTH,

Dani

 

[amherbert]

Looking over at the thread Jim started after this one, he's solved the aiguillette and epaulette question admirably!

Looking at the Figurines article, I see how the horse furniture would have to be changed.

Cheers
Andy

 

[lancier]

Polish Lancers of the guard

Gents
Ive been reading your mail with intrest and also disapointment as many of you seem to be painters and yet much of the information on this regiments unifrom seems to be incorrect.
1. Kurkha was blue slightly lighter shade than the imperial blue piped crimson
2. front plastons crimson with silver lace for all, officers had a lace of there own pattern which was again silver.
3. trousers same blue as jacket with double crimson stripes but also the inside steam between the two stripes was piped crimson.
4. the turn backs were crimson only.
5. chapska crimson piped white. silver for officers the central band lace was natural white for troopers almost an off white, sliver for sgts and above officers also had silver depending on rank. sqn ldrs had crimson velvet with single row of oak leafs in silver.
6. all belting was white all belt fittings were brass colour.
7. sgts and senoir sgts epulettes were silver/crimsom mixed as was the auglettes same for trumpters.
8. rank lace was silver single 15mm for cpls, double 22mm lace for sgts and three for senoir sgts.
9. troopers collars were plain crimsom, cpls and sgts were edges with 15mm silver lace.
10. saddle cloths for all ranks except officers was the same, officers lace was silvered, the saddlecloth was piped crimson, then had a 55mm natual white lace with a 52mm crimson lace overlaid, crowned n on the front with eagles in the rear corners.
11. the riding coat was normally rolled ober the front of the saddle under the saddlecloth, sometime worn rolled over the shoulders for battle.
12. the portmanatau was crimson piped white, fastened with buttons internally and three straps, under this when on the saddle would have been several items such as stable jacket and camapign trousers,and also a sack de ville which was white canvas.
13. the riding coats of which there was two types one with sleves one with out, there are questions on the small cape as being detachable how ever this has not been confirmed, while there are referances to the early coats being so the sleved one appears not to have this.these were again off white with a slashed crimson collar as the kurkha, it is not known if rank was worn on the coats.
14. the riding campiagn trousers were not the same as the french patterns, in that they did not have any piped pockets they were uniform blue with a single crimson stripe and 18 unifrom buttons up each leg.
15. lance buckets were fixed to both irons as the lance was moved from left to right from tme to time also they trainned to use the lance with both hands.
16. all ranks except officers wore bonnet de police, with the flamme tucked in if on duty and hanging it appears when not so, officers wore konfet caps in several pattens but all in regt crimson.
17. bridles were standard light cav patten in black with steel/silver fittings.
18. epulettes and auglettes not being worn was normal when on the march or wearing the over coat, being that the troopers were white and for protection would have been kept in the portmantau, the exception being that the regt also wore these when mounted on the march with stable jackets when they marched to spain from chantilly,

the regt would normally have been wearing campaign dress at all times except when napoleon was on the field or it was a sunday or parades.

there is always the argument about the crimson polish crimson is a medium crimson not pink not even a touch of pink, the plastrons were always reversed to protect the crimson and the lace except for the same reasons above, however when serving in spain with napoleon the plastrons would have been exposed to the rain and sun so the crimson would have faded a little, but this would have been before they became lancers. ie 1807.

hope this helps with your painting

Jerry

 

[lancier]

Polish Lancers of the guard

Gents
Ive been reading your mail with intrest and also disapointment as many of you seem to be painters and yet much of the information on this regiments unifrom seems to be incorrect.
1. Kurkha was blue slightly lighter shade than the imperial blue piped crimson
2. front plastons crimson with silver lace for all, officers had a lace of there own pattern which was again silver.
3. trousers same blue as jacket with double crimson stripes but also the inside steam between the two stripes was piped crimson.
4. the turn backs were crimson only.
5. chapska crimson piped white. silver for officers the central band lace was natural white for troopers almost an off white, sliver for sgts and above officers also had silver depending on rank. sqn ldrs had crimson velvet with single row of oak leafs in silver.
6. all belting was white all belt fittings were brass colour.
7. sgts and senoir sgts epulettes were silver/crimsom mixed as was the auglettes same for trumpters.
8. rank lace was silver single 15mm for cpls, double 22mm lace for sgts and three for senoir sgts.
9. troopers collars were plain crimsom, cpls and sgts were edges with 15mm silver lace.
10. saddle cloths for all ranks except officers was the same, officers lace was silvered, the saddlecloth was piped crimson, then had a 55mm natual white lace with a 52mm crimson lace overlaid, crowned n on the front with eagles in the rear corners.
11. the riding coat was normally rolled ober the front of the saddle under the saddlecloth, sometime worn rolled over the shoulders for battle.
12. the portmanatau was crimson piped white, fastened with buttons internally and three straps, under this when on the saddle would have been several items such as stable jacket and camapign trousers,and also a sack de ville which was white canvas.
13. the riding coats of which there was two types one with sleves one with out, there are questions on the small cape as being detachable how ever this has not been confirmed, while there are referances to the early coats being so the sleved one appears not to have this.these were again off white with a slashed crimson collar as the kurkha, it is not known if rank was worn on the coats.
14. the riding campiagn trousers were not the same as the french patterns, in that they did not have any piped pockets there were uniform blue with a single crimson stripe and 18 unifrom buttons up each leg.
15. lance bukets were fixed to both irons as the lance was moved from left to right from tme to time also they trainned to use the lance with both hands.
16. all ranks excpet officers worn bonnet de police, with the flamme ticked in if on duty and hanging it appears when not so, officers wore konfet caps in several pattens but all in regt crimson.
17. bridles were standard light cav patten in black with steel/silver fittings.
18. epulettes and auglettes not being worn was normal when on the march or wearing the over coat, being that the troopers were white and for protection would have been kept in the portmantau, the exception being that the regt also wore these when mounted on the march with stable jackets when they marched to spain from chantilly,

the regt would normally have been wearing campaign dress at all times except when napoleon was on the field it was a sunday or parades.

there is always the argument about the crimson polish crimson is a medium crimson not pink not even a touch of pink, the plastrons were always reversed to protect the crimson and the lace excpet for the same reasons above, however when serving in spain with napoleon the plastrons would have been exposed to the rain and sun so the crimson would have faded a little, but this would have been before they became lancers. ie 1807.

hope this helps with your painting vist the reencatment groups website below for close ups and some guide to the crimson we had it dyed from orginal samples.
Jerry

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolishLancersPublicSite/

 

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