New drapery reference book query

[minimaker]

Hi,

a while ago I was contacted by Douglas Johnson about a new book they had with pose references for sculpting the human figure (see www.artmodels.biz and www.livemodelbooks.com). We got talking and he told me they were thinking of doing a similar book with clothed figures as drapery reference. I think that's a great idea since that that would work nicely together with "dynamic folds and drapery" by Burne. I suggested to him I'd ask around to see what everybody would like to see in this book.

So, here is a question for you people, what would you like to see in such a book. Suggestions, ideas? Let me know and I'll pas on the info.

Bye, Ming-hua

 

[garyjd]

Ming-Hua, I think it's a great idea. I would think mutiple views of figures wearing clothing made of various fabrics in various poses would beneficial to sculptors.~Gary

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by garyjd@Feb 7 2006, 01:10 AM
I would think mutiple views of figures wearing clothing made of various fabrics in various poses would beneficial to sculptors.

Excellent idea - seeing the same folds from different angles is very important to get a proper understanding of their shape in three dimensions.

There are a couple of illustration source books though that feature clothed and unclothed figures shot from multiple angles already.

Einion

 

[quang]

Another picture book on drapery is always good news.

But what we REALLY need is an written (text) article on how folds are created, the different types of folds and examples of how various material behave under similar circumstances.

These are the basics of drapery study and cannot be skipped if your aim is to sculpt accurate, realistic folds.

Pictures are welcome but are useless unless you know how 'it' works.

My two Euro cents, of course

Quang

Another way of doing it is to study Michealangelo's Pieta. It contains every fold a sculptor will ever need.

 

[Roy]

Quang..."ma' man"....that's my favourite piece of sculpture of all time....I could look at Pieta forever and never be tired of it...if I could ever see that in the flesh it would be a dream come true...

Roy.

 

[minimaker]

Quang: what other drapery picture book?

Do you know that book I mentioned in my mail? "Dynamic wrinkles and drapery" by Burne Hogarth? The theory (thrust, bend, compressions, crossing, different materials etc.) is explained in that book. The photo book that's planned could work well as an extension to it since the book shows the effects from one view only while the book should have multiple views from the same subject.

 

[quang]

Hello Ming-Hua,

I do have the Hogarth book in my library. Like with his other books, the drawings are very impressive indeed although I've always found Hogarth's style a little bit 'extreme' (it's suitable if you set out to 'do' Tarzan or 'Conan', otherwise...).

Like in most d-i-y books, the emphasis is mostly put on the 'how'. What we need is the 'why' and the 'when' to complete an all-round grasp of the subject.

If a 'how-to' book puts as much emphasis on the 'why' and the 'when' as it does on the 'how', it would be a winner.

Quang

 

[minimaker]

I agree on the Tarzan style comments. It's no surprise since he drew Tarzan but it does limit the book in the respect of realistic examples. Same with his other books unfortunately.
As to the how, why and when comment. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. The emphasis in the book is on why certain folds appear in clothing under what circumstances, not that much how to draw them. What kind of subjects are you thinking of exactly? What are you still missing?

Anyway, to get back to the original question, any suggestions on what photos to put in the book. They are no art teachers, so they will not be writing a theory book I think. Though we can always try to convince them otherwise.

Bye Ming-Hua

 

[quang]

Hello Ming-Hua,

I understand your concern about a modelling aid with hundreds of pictures that sculptors can use and copy as a REFERENCE.

I happen to own such a book with hundreds of poses and 360°/multi-angle all-round views for each pose. The sad fact is that I've never learned a single thing from it. What I need is someone to point out the important spots, to show me where to look at and what to look for.

In fact, I just realize that what I'm looking for is just an old-school art teacher! :lol:

Q.

 

[minimaker]

I think I know what you mean with those pose books (posefiles, illustrator reference guide series etc.). The quality of the photos tend to be that bad you can't distinguish the folds. The US posefile series is better since you can get the cd's with the large colour pics where you can see the folds.

This is also why I'm trying to steer the publisher of this book towards high contrast clothing without decorative patterns so the drapery effects are clearly visisble.

As to old school art teachers, both Brigman and Lanterni have some notes on drapery in their books buth neither goes into detailed analysis. It's mostly placing fabric in the right pose and then sculpting them. One note about traditional sculpts. Many seem to have used mouseline <sp?> as a fabric which creates very nice fine drapery which would not appear with more commonly used fabrics like cotton and wool.

 

[quang]

Hello Ming-Hua,

THIS I find useful.

Q.

 

[minimaker]

Ok, that's clear though the main difference with the main book is the presentation. This is kind off the schoolboard method that you seen more in books of that period. Now something in this format (as opposed to a whole) book could be a nice addition to the photo book. I'll post it as a suggestion.

By the way, what book is that from? It reminds me of a reprinted book I picked up in the US but I'm not sure if it's the same (I'm at work right now - can't check.)

Oh, forgot about this, thanks for posting the picture of the statue. I think what you see there is the clarity that we would also want from the reference pictures since drapery effects are very clear.

Bye, Ming-Hua

 

[quang]

Originally posted by minimaker@Feb 8 2006, 06:54 AM
By the way, what book is that from?

In fact, I 'inherited' it from a veteran art director when I used to work as an illustrator.

It came as a huge file with hundreds of loose leaflets like the one above. It's been a steady companion for the past 25 years.

Q.

 

[Einion]

FWIW I don't feel that one needs a lot of explanation of wrinkling and drapery effects in cloth. Some is certainly a good idea for general principles but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words and individual circumstances can show some unusual exceptions to 'rules' - pre-existing creases, fresh v. long wear, differences in cut and tailoring can all make two similar items hang differently.

Unlike colour effects, where context can prove very misleading to what you think you're seeing, when sculpting you only (only! ) need to follow the forms that you see as closely as you're able. With sharp, well-lit photographs from multiple angles you get as close to a three-dimensional view of something as you can get, without actually having the source in front of you to walk around.

If we imagine for the sake or argument the same pose with similar garments in three weights of cloth shot front, back and with three-quarter views, studying and comparing them you'd soon develop some appreciation for how fabric weight governs how things hang even without any text accompaniment. Here I don't think you should necessarily aim for the lowest common denominator - this sort of reference is likely to be inherently better suited to the serious student (who already has some appreciation of how to sculpt and to observe) and above and trying to make it all things to all people might make it less attractive to the real target audience.

Einion

 

[joachim lindman]

I'm buying!

joachim

 

[Calvin]

Hi Ming-Hua, it's just my humble opinion, but generally the italian baroque (baroque, not renaissance) is considered as the peak of the drapery scultping tecnique. Besides that (at least for me) it's really hard to find something.
Aside the well known samples, it would be nice to see something which maybe is less known but in my opinion much more interesting.
Bernini is the most known exponent of this current, but there are more artists, like Antonio Corradini (see the attached picture, "La Pudicizia"), from il barocco napoletano.
Luca

 

[minimaker]

Using statues as examples? Interesting idea but I think arranging for the copyrights ma be difficult. I believe most museums retain the publicity right on photographs of items from their collection.

Just an idea, what we can do is create a reference thread here with links to interesting statues like that. What do you think?

 

[Calvin]

This is just another example. The picture of La Pudicizia was borrowed from http://www.scultura-italiana.com/, go to Scultura Barocca -> Antonio Corradini -> Galleria Fotografica.
Another site with an huge number of pictures is http://sights.seindal.dk/. There is also some gallery from the most important italian museums.

 

[garyjd]

Luca, Thank you for the links. There is a treasure trove of great images there. I find sculpture to be a valuable for both the beginner and experienced sculptor. Though you can only get so much from a picture of a piece of sculpture they can be helpful in seeing how clothing and anatomical features were done. Thanks again.~Gary

 

[minimaker]

The only criticism I would have on the statue examples shown is that the fabric seems to be a very light one (probably mouseline) and has for that reason sharper and more creases than daily use fabrics. So they may not be good as direct reference. Still, they are good to as example of drapery theory.

Thanks for the links. They are great.