New Figure Samurai - 1575

[Mirofsoft]

Happy New Samourai

No .... Happy New Year ...

 

[Miguel Jimenez-Bravo]

Thanks a lot. I hope that in the next year all your wishes will be fulfilled.

 

[myouchin]

Some references on different type of sashimono mounting brackets:

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Japanese armor researchers thinking that these parts did not exist as of the 1575.It is speculated that gattari and machiuke first appeared around the siege of Odawara (1590) from the conquest of Kyūshū (1586-1587) by Toyotomi Hideyoshi.In earlier periods, the sashimono was inserted into the belt at the waist, or the pole was fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the cuirass.In earlier periods, the sashimono was inserted into the belt at the waist, or the pole was fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the cuirass.

 

[Tommy Brown]

Japanese armor researchers thinking that these parts did not exist as of the 1575.It is speculated that gattari and machiuke first appeared around the siege of Odawara (1590) from the conquest of Kyūshū (1586-1587) by Toyotomi Hideyoshi.In earlier periods, the sashimono was inserted into the belt at the waist, or the pole was fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the cuirass.In earlier periods, the sashimono was inserted into the belt at the waist, or the pole was fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the cuirass.

Interesting. So you are not 100% sure. Could you please show some photos on how the sashimono should be mounted? If it is inserted into the belt at the waist then the pole will not stay upright and steady. When the Samurai is on horseback or on foot fighting in the battlefield it will be flopping around and some of the sashimono poles are pretty tall too.

 

[myouchin]

Interesting. So you are not 100% sure. Could you please show some photos on how the sashimono should be mounted? If it is inserted into the belt at the waist then the pole will not stay upright and steady. When the Samurai is on horseback or on foot fighting in the battlefield it will be flopping around and some of the sashimono poles are pretty tall too.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any pictures like the ones you want either. I was just presenting expert opinion.
I also have the same doubts as you do.In my opinion, if it is a small size sashimono, there is probably no big inconvenience if it is fixed in two places, the nail on the back and the belt on the waist.Later, gattari, ukezutsu, and machiuke may have been invented to reliably support the larger size of sashimono.Well, this is just an amateur's guess.

 

[Tommy Brown]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any pictures like the ones you want either. I was just presenting expert opinion.
I also have the same doubts as you do.In my opinion, if it is a small size sashimono, there is probably no big inconvenience if it is fixed in two places, the nail on the back and the belt on the waist.Later, gattari, ukezutsu, and machiuke may have been invented to reliably support the larger size of sashimono.Well, this is just an amateur's guess.

So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575. It is kind of odd, does not make any sense and inconvenience every time the Samurai when preparing for the battle they have their sashimono poles fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the back of the cuirass and withdraw from the the nail in order to remove the sashimono after the battle. The nature of the bamboo poles will also split vertically when nailing down onto the cuirass.

From the book Samurai Armour: The Japanese Cuirass by Trevor Absolon, it indicated the brackets can be found on the early Tosei Do.



I am unable to find any of the nail on the back of cuirass. I can only find these woodblock priints.

 

[Miguel Jimenez-Bravo]

Thank you all for your efforts in providing a lot of information. In my modest view, I think that trying to discuss details that 95% of the people who see this figure on this forum are indifferent to is a bit of a stretch. All these latter conversations should be held in private, where those who are very interested or fanatical about this subject can discuss as much as they want.
Nevertheless, thanks again.

 

[Banjer]

Thank you all for your efforts in providing a lot of information. In my modest view, I think that trying to discuss details that 95% of the people who see this figure on this forum are indifferent to is a bit of a stretch. All these latter conversations should be held in private, where those who are very interested or fanatical about this subject can discuss as much as they want.
Nevertheless, thanks again.

I disagree, if you post a thread on an open forum to promote a product you must be prepared to allow people the freedom to discuss the merits or shortcomings of that product. I, for one, have found this dissusion interesting and informative. Threads often follow this sort of path and as long is it is not going too far of topic I see nothing wrong with it.

As I said earlier this is still a nice piece of work but people have the right to point out errors.

Bill

 

[Miguel Jimenez-Bravo]

I fully agree. If the errors, according to different points of view, have already manifested themselves. It makes no sense to continue arguing about the same thing.

 

[myouchin]

First of all, I apologize for the inconvenience caused to Miguel Jimenez-Bravo.I found that some of the information given on this topic was not correct, so I thought more correct information was needed.I didn't mean to emphasize the error in your figure.

So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575. It is kind of odd, does not make any sense and inconvenience every time the Samurai when preparing for the battle they have their sashimono poles fixed by sticking it directly into a nail protruding vertically from the back of the cuirass and withdraw from the the nail in order to remove the sashimono after the battle. The nature of the bamboo poles will also split vertically when nailing down onto the cuirass.

From the book Samurai Armour: The Japanese Cuirass by Trevor Absolon, it indicated the brackets can be found on the early Tosei Do.

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I am unable to find any of the nail on the back of cuirass. I can only find these woodblock priints.

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Hello Tommy Brown,
My knowledge of Japanese armor is in the middle or a little below that by Japanese standards. But it's not difficult to refute your opinion.And I think this discussion needs to be done publicly, not privately.But I don't want to bother Miguel Jimenez-Bravo anymore. So can you create a new thread?I don't understand the function of the forum well because I can't speak English. I don't know what to do in such cases.If you create a new thread we can continue this discussion there.What do you think?

 

[yellowcat]

I fully agree. If the errors, according to different points of view, have already manifested themselves. It makes no sense to continue arguing about the same thing.

It is not about arguing it is about presenting correct information to enlighten to those who still have doubts.

You said you consulted do not show representations of small horses in any case. All the information I provide are contemporary photographs, which in no case prove anything. Of course my photographs are contemporary. Camera was not invented back then and the first photograph made in a camera was taken in 1826.

Once again I present to you the precise and true information on Samurai horses the Kiso horse.

The Kiso has historically been used for agricultural as well as military purposes. In fact it is said that, during the 12th Century, over 10,000 soldiers used the Kiso as their war mount. During the Edo era, spanning the period 1600 to 1867, the Kiso was once again used for war and was bred actively for this purpose. The population of the Kiso horse rose to more than 10,000 at that time.
The Kiso horse is medium sized, standing about 13 hands (135 cm). Throughout the Meiji Era, Kiso horses were crossbred with many western breeds and the pure stain virtually disappeared. The breed is being preserved in the region centering on Kaida mura in Kiso County, Nagano Prefecture. There are today only 117 Kiso horses left, which are often seen in processions in local festivals. They are also used as riding horses.

Here are some links or you can google search it:

https://www.petmd.com/horse/breeds/c_hr_kiso

https://samurai-world.com/kisouma-samurai-horses/

http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/kiso/index.html/

It is regretful that most people’s lack of knowledge on the subject regarding Samurai. Sculptor Emmanuel Valerio who sculpted the Fort Duquesne Red Devil Commander once told me he saw in a figure show that someone had replaced his Red Devil horse with a bigger one because the person was being ignorant and unaware of the Kiso horse and thought the original horse was wrongly sculpted. That is a pity.

People who see all the big horses depict in the Samurai movies; woodblock prints and scrolls give the false impression that Samurai used big horses in their cavalry. As in the movie RAN directed by Akira Kurosawa, the horses were imported from the United States for the shoot.

Since you said all your pictorial manifestations of medieval Japan(engravings, scrolls, plates, drawings, etc.) consulted do not show representations of small horses in any case.

Here are some paintings and an e-book where Kiso horses are faithfully shown.

e-book on Japan horse riding history: The Paintings by Ebine Shundo on the Ceiling of the Yasaki Inari Shrine,Tokyo,Japan HERE

 

[Miguel Jimenez-Bravo]

Hi again,
I am extremely grateful for the wealth of information you provide.
Looking at the old engravings that you provide, and that all of them, plus some others, are in my archives, it does not appear that any horse is in a 13-hand size. They all seem to be between 14-15 hands, which is the size we have scaled the horse in the figure.
Again, thank you very much.

 

[yellowcat]

Hi again,
I am extremely grateful for the wealth of information you provide.
Looking at the old engravings that you provide, and that all of them, plus some others, are in my archives, it does not appear that any horse is in a 13-hand size. They all seem to be between 14-15 hands, which is the size we have scaled the horse in the figure.
Again, thank you very much.

WOW! Really! My horses are not 13 hand size and are not the Kiso breed. Previously you indicated yours consulted do not show representations of small horses in any case and my photographs which in no case prove anything. You're now keep changing your content, updated along the way and contradict yourself. It is just misleading. Your horse does not even has any characteristic of a Kiso horse. Check out my links and photographs to compare.

Good luck to your sale!

 

[The Riveteer]

In my modest view, I think that trying to discuss details that 95% of the people who see this figure on this forum are indifferent to is a bit of a stretch. All these latter conversations should be held in private, where those who are very interested or fanatical about this subject can discuss as much as they want.
.

Wow x 2! and quite right Bill.
I may have inadvertently started this off by merely asking other members to provide information on a subject that I had found difficult to find. Maybe I should have started my own thread but as this was a new thread involving the subject I feel I would not have got the attention if people did not know where I was coming from.

Migueal, I wished you well at the start, and I still do, I still think it's a nice figure -thats never been denied, but that statement of yours demands response.
Do you know for a fact that 100% of the people on this site have read the thread? If not, what is the point of the percentage quoted? I count five people having discussed this; if that's 5% of the people on this site, there must only be (according to your statistic) 100 people here in total; or maybe it's just that 95% of the people might not interested in buying your product anyway! (only a little sarcasm ).

Why is the number of contributors important? - for your sales maybe, but not for trying to get facts correct. I would rather listen to three informed people discussing something than a horde of people who are unschooled in it. Are you saying (in your opinion) that if the majority of enthusiasts in the hobby don't care for accuracy you are free to make up anything?

I do not like being called a fanatic for simply having an interest in finding out as much as I can about a subject and it offends me. I don't expect everyone to have the same degree of interest in the same things as I do, but I don't consider it unreasonable to expect that anyone would welcome discussion and the sharing of information on a topic they have been attracted to.

It's been said before; manufacturers showing their wares on the site is welcome but this is not a site predominantly designed to cater to the needs of the trader. It is a forum for discussion.
You are free to respond to this but I will not be participating any longer as I see things are now becoming personal.

Thank you to all the contributors who have helped me widen my knowledge on this subject regardless.

David

 

[myouchin]

No response from Tommy Brown. I have to keep the discussion, but I'm not going to do it here.Therefore I decided to refute him in my old thread.I don't know if that is the right place, but "ZEHI NI OYOBAZU".
I recommend anyone interested in Japanese armor to browse it. If you are not interested, please do not turn the page.
↓
https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/samurai　azuchi-momoyama-period.118986/page-3

 

[Babelfish]

Sigh. Why is it that more than any other subject, Samurai threads usually end up with guys falling out? You see the same on armour forums, except on there it's usually about WWII German panzers.

- Steve

 

[Tommy Brown]

No response from Tommy Brown. I have to keep the discussion, but I'm not going to do it here.Therefore I decided to refute him in my old thread.I don't know if that is the right place, but "ZEHI NI OYOBAZU".
I recommend anyone interested in Japanese armor to browse it. If you are not interested, please do not turn the page.
↓
https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/samurai　azuchi-momoyama-period.118986/page-3

Hello,

I did say this. "So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575." But this is from your own post. Refer to your quote below. "Thinking" could mean not sure and speculate. "These parts" refer to the brackets. You disagree with your own quote. So don't put your words into my mouth put it back into yours.

Japanese armor researchers thinking that these parts did not exist as of the 1575.

There is no document or woodblock prints to show the nail on the back of cuirass.
I am unable to find any of the nail on the back of cuirass. My response to your previous post did not proof anything. Like I said before I could only find those photos from that particular book and those woodblock prints and again did not proof anything.

So relax. I don't disagree with you. The case is closed.

 

[Banjer]

Sigh. Why is it that more than any other subject, Samurai threads usually end up with guys falling out? You see the same on armour forums, except on there it's usually about WWII German panzers.

- Steve

I think one of the reasons is Samurai arms and armour were never a uniform as such and there is a great diverity in styles and so much was down to the maker and the owner. There were no dress regulations as such and not much was documented compared to the amount produced. Unless there is overwhelming evidence for a particular item a certain amount of licence has to be exercised because the were no rules set down.

As I have said before, if you like it buy it, if you don't then don't but please don't make differences of opinion into a war.

Bill

 

[Nap]

Hi everybody

As Bill says : "if you like it buy it, if you don't then don't but please don't make differences of opinion into a war."........

There is the PM option as well to discuss

By all mean start another samurai thread on the subject in References forum, you could always link to this thread with the amazing amount of information here from various members who are aware of resources I for one can only dream of ....so a good chance to save the links and info which I have done

Lets all learn a little bit more from the references here ...I certainly have

Thanks to Miguel for sharing the release

Happy modelling

Nap

 

[Miguel Jimenez-Bravo]

Hi Nap,
Thank you very much, for clarifying a bit, where you can follow the discussions. Your advice is welcome.