New Osprey MAA 473 New Zealand

[Dan Morton]

I've been waiting for this one for awhile and, although I've only looked through it briefly, it looks really promising. Mike Chappell's art work - well could you ask for better? Haven't read Wayne Stack's text yet, but that's on the way.

The photo of the youthful Sgt Major is particularly intriguing. He looks maybe 19!!!!

Some photos to whet your appetite.

ISBN 978-1-84908-539-7

All the best,
Dan

 

[billyturnip]

Thanks for the heads up Dan. Although I'm not painting WWI figs at the moment I'm still interested and this book will be going in my collection.

Roger.

 

[Nap]

Re: New Osprey MAA 473 New Zealand -a Question

Hi Guys ,

I have this book also and its great reference and artwork of course ...one question ......

The badges on the lower arms ie the 4 upturned cheverons with the crown above , are the cheverons actually part of the rank badge for the WO1 as I can't remember seeing this before (I haven't actually researched this fully yet !!)


Nap

 

[Dan Morton]

I don't know the answer. Noticed it too, but I assumed that a Sergeant Major was the equivalent of a WO1.

I'm sure somebody has a better answer. Nudge, nudge.

All the best,
Dan

 

[billyturnip]

I hope someone will confirm this because I'm at sea away from my books but I'm guessing the four chevrons denote his appointment as Sergeant Major while holding the rank of Warrant Officer.

Roger.

 

[Dennis]

Dan, thanks for bringing this book to our attention, as for the rank badge on the youthful Warrant Officer could he be a Sergeant Major whose appointment was that of Drum Major? But whatever he was why has he no campaign medal ribbons? after all he wears four wound stripes. I look forward to someone answering this, because it will be interesting to see.
Regards
Dennis

 

[Dennis]

Dan I have looked on the Osprey site and in one of Mike Chappell's wonderful illustrations he shows a Warrant Officer Class 1 of the NZ Army Service Corps with a Crown and Four Inverted Chevrons, depicting his rank as a RSM. Interestingly this RSM only wears Military Medal ribbon and no Campaign medals, as Mr Chappell has depicted him in the UK recovering from wounds this may explain it he may not have been awarded them yet.
This has been bothering me so I hope this helps.
Regards
Dennis

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys ,
This is indeed a interesting item , full of probables and possibilities , if this was to be sculpted then you could always just add the medal ribbons .

I think Dennis has the most likely answer about him not being awarded the campaign medals yet

Denis can you post the picture you are referring to or maybe a link ?


Nap

 

[billyturnip]

That's what I said.
I have a feeling that as if he had served only on the Western Front he wouldn't have been awarded any campaign medals just the Victory Medal & War Medal, I'm not sure when these were issued but probably not until after the armistice at least.
Just checked both issued end of 1919
Roger.

 

[billyturnip]

The only campaign medal he might have had was the 1914-15 Star but only if he had been in France & Flanders 5th August 1914- 31st December 1915. So campaign medals for Commonwealth & also British troops in WWI were pretty rare.

Roger

 

[Dennis]

Hello Nap, Hello Roger, Kev I gained my information from the Osprey Site I have a silver membership of that site, so I cannot post a picture, sorry. Kev, good luck at Bugle Call hope you have a great day mate it is good to see you back in harness again.
Roger thank you for that important piece of information, I wonder did the Australian, New Zealanders get anything medal wise for their heroic efforts at Gallipoli? Apart from well deserved gallantry awards.
So going on Mr Chappells illustration, the photo of the young looking Sergeant Major is of a youthful man holding the RSM's rank in a Regt or Corp unknown, but definitely a New Zealander owing to the Fern Leaf collar badges, hat badge , and despite being wounded 4 times this man received no gallantry awards. I hope he lived to a ripe old age and had a good life he deserved it
Dennis

 

[billyturnip]

Dennis, no campaign medals were issued to British & Imperial dforces during WWI apart from the ones already mentioned. I stand to be corrected if that's not the case but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

The next bit is pure guesswork but to be wounded that many times would indicate an infantryman, his youthfulness would indicate the same. he probably filled the position because of men lost to being killed in action and wounds.

Roger.

 

[Dennis]

Thanks Roger I am afraid my WW1 knowledge on medals is very limited, but I agree on your guesswork did some officer's say 'roll the next war promotion is far to slow' well our young man probably could tell them about battlefield promotions.
By the way I was watching Countryfile on the BBC last night and they had an article on the military cap badges cut into the chalk at Fovant, I hope the ANZAC badge and the KIWI are still visible between Bulford and Tidworth as they along with the Fovant badges are a lasting memorial to these men
Hope to see you soon again Roger
All the best
Dennis

 

[billyturnip]

I seem to recall the next war and a quick promotion saying originating in the Napoleonic wars but relevent for many others Dennis.
I missed Countryfile lastnight due to a bad signal out here, I'll watch it on iplayer when I get home, apparently out young Border Collie likes it.
When I get home I'll see if I can hunt out some more info on our Kiwi soldier, he's got me intrigued too.

Roger.

 

[billyturnip]

For everyone who has been losing sleep over this like me and assuming the NZ army used the same system as the British which I think they did,

"Regimental quartermaster-sergeants wore four chevrons on the lower sleeve, point upwards, with a star above, but adopted the crown when they too became warrant officers class II in 1915. In their case, however, the crown was surrounded by a wreath. Regimental sergeant-majors, who before the Boer War had worn four chevrons with a crown, were given in 1902 the badge of a single large crown on the lower arm, but adopted a small version of the Royal arms in its place in 1915 when they were designated warrant officers class I."

Source,
http://www.britishflatfigures.org.uk/forum/default.asphttp://www.westernfrontassociation....ons-equipment-uniforms/340-rank-insignia.html

Roger.

 

[billyturnip]

Another good link, this one is for the Australian army,

http://www.lawranceordnance.com/inf...uipment/badges_and_insignia/rank_aif_1915.php

 

[Dan Morton]

Rog and Dennis -

Thanks for answering the questions! I can't say it was keeping me awake, Rog, but I was pondering a bit.

All the best,
Dan

 

[Dennis]

Roger thank you for taking the time to answer this, I should have looked in my Fosten Brothers Cut of the Cloth articles from Military Modelling, it may have helped me.
Dennis

 

[martin tabony]

Just as a matter of interest the four bar chevron and crown are still used by the Household Cavalry. Both Squadron Quarter Master Corporal (SQMC or "scwimce") and Staff Corporals wear chevrons "points up" and a crown, although The Life Guards use a small crown and RHG/D have a black backing. Both called "Sir by junior ranks and "Corporal Major" by senior ranks.

Martin

 

[billyturnip]

Thanks for the additional info Martin. I came across that when I was looking up the above stuff.... just to add to the confusion.

Dan, Dennis, cheers. :thumb down:

Roger.