Politics at S. Vincent

[pkw4]

Hi
I'm just back from Le Petit Soldat and i'm very annoyed.
I really would like to know how with the same figures i was awarded two gold and four silver at Euro and nothing in S. Vincent.I did put Belfast U.K.
on my entry card next time i will put Italy since it seems that this year
the competition was an affair between Italy,France and Spain.
A huge number of award were given in the fantasy category Where most of the names were Spanish There were very few Spanish figures painters.
Was this in preparation for the world expo?
I will thik twice before going back next year.

Really disgusted
Roberto Spaolonzi (Belfast U.K.)

 

[Roc]

Roberto, maybe they made a mistake.


Roc

 

[garyjd]

Though you may have won some major awards at Euro they are not guarantees that you'll win the same, if at all at another show. Though I believe politics plays a part at at least some shows, you can only hope the judges will be impartial in making their choices.~Gary

 

[CDNTanker25]

I wouldn't worry about it... At the local IPMS show here, I didn't win anything, but at AMPS I won Gold on the three same kits I entered. I am sure it is political as I don't get along with too many of the local IPMS guys, and it is LOCAL. However, I wasn't steamed about it, I don't enter shows to win, I enter to bring my stuff, have it judged and critiqued and learn some great tips. Not to mention, the comraderie between modellers during the day is great fun too! Many of my close friends are from Model Expos!

 

[tonydawe]

Roberto
I think its very unwise and unfair to cast aspersions at judges and accuse them of favouring modellers from certain countries and not favouring others, particularly on a public forum such as this.
Unless you have clear evidence of a conspiracy on the part of the judges, your comments sound like "sour grapes" to me.
I'd like to think that judges do their very best to reward quality modelling, and hand out medals accordingly, regardless of what country the modeller comes from.
Cheers

 

[vergilius]

It shouldn't be like that but I'm quite sure that some judges do have favourites. But then, they are human too.

 

[Einion]

Roberto, may I direct you to my comments in this thread:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24669

You've been to the Dublin show, yes? As you might know I entered there for many years and judged for most of them; even in a smallish, tight-knit group of people like there the judging can be all over the place from each individual's perspective.

Anyway, anyone that enters in a number of shows will have stories like this; it is absolutely inevitable. So ask yourself, did you go to win medals or did you go to exhibit your work, experience the show and see the work of other top modellers?

The bottom line is really this for me: medals/awards are icing. They are not the cake, the reason to make models. If they are for you fair enough, each to his own, but this sort of thing even happens to some big names; best of show in one of the Continental competitions about two years ago didn't even win a gold in Euro; and honestly, I think that's fair. That doesn't mean it didn't deserve the top award where it got it - best of show means exactly that - but it's no objective standard.

Though you may have won some major awards at Euro they are not guarantees that you'll win the same, if at all at another show.

That's it in a nutshell.

I think its very unwise and unfair to cast aspersions at judges and accuse them of favouring modellers from certain countries and not favouring others, particularly on a public forum such as this.

What's a public forum for but to discuss all aspects of the hobby, good and bad? And maybe Roberto's summary of the spread of the awards is pretty accurate (I've heard of and seen worse!)

Unfortunately, as you say, it almost always comes across as sour grapes; which, let's face it, has to factor into it in some small way. This is why I now prefer to do this on behalf of other people, "They got robbed!" kinda thing, rather than "I got robbed!"

I'd like to think that judges do their very best to reward quality modelling, and hand out medals accordingly, regardless of what country the modeller comes from.

It would be nice to think so.

Einion

 

[ivopreda]

disgusted too...

I’m surprise for this post!

At least I hoped to see it on an Italian forum. Roberto Spaolonzi is an Italian name I think… and we met together in the pass..

I’m the responsible of saint Vincent show and the judge chief and I know how this years judge has worked. I’m the man that assign the medals and I will check if I have done some mistake forgetting some winner…

We had a show with more than 1.300 models from many countries, there isn’t any show equal to others… as explained from somebody win at one show doesn’t mean you have to win in another.
Probably LPS medal is one of the most difficult to win due to the quantity of modellers and display ( just less than 450)

I don’t know why mr Spaolonzi didn’t win anything ( I’ll check soon ) but why mr. Spaolonzi don’t post some picture to show his level?

It’s absolutely ridiculous that we give more medal to Spanish because the Word expo… we don’t need that!!!!

I repeat, I’ll check the result and I’ll answer but if mr. Spaolonzi never understand about modeller friendship and pleasure to stay together he doesn’t understand the key of our hobby…

Ivo PREDA
Le petit Soldat

 

[Major_Goose]

Well having participated in many shows in and out of my country, i think i can say few humble words.

I agree that winning a medal or even a Best of Show in a competition does not assure the same level of winning in the next or any other show.

Most of you have experienced cases that big names and good works have won lesser prizes than other not so well known and maybe not even so good works.

BUT , this happens to everyday life, in work, relations , sports everywhere. When there is some free opinion judging , you cannot avoid that .

What i have concluded that may happens some times , is a reduced concentration when the time element is pressing the judges , and the pieces are too many . And maybe in some times a bad judgmenet.

Last year in Monte San Savino , i was a judge along with other nice gentlemen . We started judging at 3 in the afternoon and finished ar 4 in the morning , trying to do the right thing , and re evaluate every figure, and also talk between all of us for what was the fair to do .

I can swear that there was no one to imply or manipulate the judging we did, but i cannot swear that we didnt do any mistake . And why is that ?

Whats a mistake when judging an art piece.

Who is the right and who is the wrong ? Who knows better and who knows less.

The sure thing is that mistakes are done , and also sometimes, some guys have favorites that might be benefitted from the judgement. And sometimes we have seen crazy things .

I believe that is a little difficult to have a competition where all persons will be satisfied . Is not possible due to the Human nature.

I have found my self and many other modellers to be misjudged (i dont care if its by lack or on purpose)regarding other subjects in the same expo , that won higher prices , but then what can you do ?

I think the only solution is to try to be better and better (if the competition spirit is in you deeply) so you can not be misjudged, next time, or at least you get lesser misjudged.

LPS is a big competition with many figures , and is possible that some themes didnt got the same attention from the judges,or anything similiar.

I coul right some more pages on this but it would be of no use. This issue will never change , so everyone is on his own on this

But i think, in Competitions, the best is to try and enjoy the friends , that are around you, and you rarely see them , and that you can see many art works of your favorite hobby to get inspired .

Anyway an award ceremony lasts only 1-2 hours , while the joy of the hobby lasts a life time

best regards

Costas

 

[Normo]

Well said Costas, I agree with what you say completely

I think that a lot of people in this brilliant hobby of ours forget why we paint figures BECAUSE WE ENJOY IT!! (At least I do) If you win a prize, great, if not have a laugh and get a beer from the winner and better luck next time

If it reaches the stage when politics comes into it get out of the hobby and take up a more strenuous hobby like knitting!!

Chill out men and enjoy the hobby for what it is

Cheers
John

 

[Chevalier de Malte]

Not to open a BIG can of worms but people tend to forget what happened in World Expo Rome 2000 ...

On the other hand we have to consider that judges are human and different from an expo to the other and everyone has his own creteria and stylse ... my only concern is that though many European competition work on the Open System I do not see it fulfilled as US shows, IMO European expos tend to close their hands when giving out medals ... maybe someone enlighten me on this issue?

Ivan

 

[lbfactory]

Roberto I'm agree with the others Winning a medal at euro doesn't garantees to have an awards on other show
I have won a silver medal at euro 2007 and nothing at saint vincent with the same bust, and i'm french !!!

I repeat, I’ll check the result and I’ll answer but if mr. Spaolonzi never understand about modeller friendship and pleasure to stay together he doesn’t understand the key of our hobby…

Ivo PREDA
Le petit Soldat
Please Ivo could you check my results too lol

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Hello!

Without knowing whether Roberto has a case or not, I can definatly admit that I would be surprised myself if I had won 2 Gold and 4 Silver at Euro and not winning any price at all at a show that specializes in figures.
(I could take at an IPMS-show or a car modellers show or where visitiors and/or exhibitors vote. )

On the other hand I was quite surprised for winning an award at Euro as well.

And I think that most of us would have been surprised, at least a little.

Of course one should vent things one isnt at ease with here, as long as its being done in a civilized way. And so should the answer be as well focusing on the main question.

Cheers

 

[pkw4]

Caro Sig. Preda
Here are some pics of my work.I have sent them because i'm not the kind of person that shy away from a challenge.
I would like to apologize to you for the way i have espress my opinion in my first post.One's peception is not necessarly the reality.However i express what i percived .I did have a very good time in S. Vncent and i did meet a lot of very nice people.
I do not completly agree with the point make that one should go just for the company and not the competition itself.
Euro and S.Vincent are both international competiton and some people spend a great deal of money in order to attend.It is
the competition itself that motivates most people(in my opinion)in trying to better theyr skills
And i do feel the judging Should be more consistent .Maybe with a unified point scoring sistem for internationals.
Regards
Roberto Spaolonzi.

 

[Franco]

Competitions vs Personal enjoyment

I started reading this thread with the feeling of "Oh no here we go again". The hobby should be first and foremost about personal enjoyment and making friends and secondly about competitions or whatever else a person prefers.

My personal view is that I do this hobby to destress from a high pressured job and to find some sane moments of enjoyment. Once I have finished a piece as long as I have painted it to the best of my ability and it is pleasing to me I have succeed i.e. got hours of fun and enjoyment. Obviously I strive to paint my next figure better than my last - but it is a personal challenge for improvement. I do not pursue gold medals or to get a pat on the back from judges etc. I paint for MYSELF.

I totally agree with John -

"I think that a lot of people in this brilliant hobby of ours forget why we paint figures BECAUSE WE ENJOY IT!! (At least I do) If you win a prize, great, if not have a laugh and get a beer from the winner and better luck next time"

well put. The only thing I would replace is the beer with a grappa!!!

Costas my friend you provide some very useful information on the hard task of being a judge. Looking at the level of models entered I think it is hard to judge a piece of art.

Roberto I cannot comment on your issue as I was not personally at Saint Vincent but your photos of your figures are wonderful.

I can just end off by sharing another personal experience - competitions destroyed three wonderful model clubs I belonged to in the past due to some large egos, gold seeking and frustrated personalities. It set the hobby back in our area for years and that was my experience with 'glitzy competitions'.

Just to end by saying that the views expressed above are neither right nor wrong but my own personal experiences.

Now go out and produce art and have fun!!!

Ciao
Franco

 

[vergilius]

Well then, let's stop this neverending discussion and have some fun!

 

[Chevalier de Malte]

Not to arise the argument but here we are being confronted by two different European competition results that realy do not credit anything to someones efforts, so here we have on one side a Gold in Euro and nothing in LPS, so does the standard has been raised so much in just less then a month!?????

I understand that judges are different and maybe creterias also, but let us be in the boots of this artist, let say I got a GOLD in X and entered in Y, so you get the impression that you get some sort of recognition and alas you get nothing ... it happened to me opposite in I got awarded in a WE and in Euro nothing ... so finally I say so what the hell are the judges up to ... what were they seeing to get such a drastic result and comparison?

For me medals are a way of credited for my work and compare and see were I stand with the standard of the day, but cannot compare a result like this if it happens ????? I think judges have to note that after a piece of work there is a human being and moral can be crashed in a decision they take!

So as many said up here art cannot realy be judged ... so we leave it up to the eyes of the viewer! Competitions are a double edged sword so you cannot ever satisfy everyone with the result! But on the other hand for ME and IMO a good work of art should always be credited at least with something and not just passed away!

That is my 2c on this issue ... I might be wrong but this story will remain till eternity!

Ivan

 

[Angaliel]

I have a question :

why thinking LPS made a mistake? and not Euro? about your medals?

Just kidding...............

I did not know you were here at LPS, I'd like to met you.....

JP

 

[Graywolf]

First of all ; I congratulate Roberto for his great success in Folkstone and I am sorry for his disappointment in Saint Vincent. I am sure if a technical fault was occured during show,it will be fixed asap.

As a judge in international model shows in recent years and as a participant of Le Petit Soldat 2006; I believe what should be said is almost totally said by Costas. IMHO; In open system ;the aim of a jury in the model shows is NOT to cover the personal expectations of the painters or to re-award the figures with good results in former shows.The aim of the jury is to appreciate the efforts of some painters and to encourage some painters for their further efforts. The judges are chosen to decide according to their personal likings in their own standards as we dont have a constitution for figure painting. For example; I was a judge in the same jury with Pietro Balloni,Ivo preda and Kostas Kariotellis though my painting skills and my painted figures can not be compared to them . I can not claim judges always give the correct decisions or better to say the decision that the public awaits for because that is contrary to human nature. What is best for me can be worst for you, my best liked song, painting,book or figure can be a usual one for you. It depends on personal choices. There may be some factors effecting judges decisions but I dont believe things like nationality, religion, politics are effective on that or they dont judge with the intrigue plans of next year shows. As I told before; I have been in Petit Soldat last year and the show was one of the top standard shows I have ever seen with +400 modelers and +1700 figures.(I havent been in Euromilitaire before and I know it is also one of the best) Most of the standard category entries were deserving to be in master category as I compared to other shows. Many of the figures I expected for gold were awarded in certificates or nothing... Our figures were really low than the show standard and we proudly won a few Pour Le Merit certificates for our entries... Shortly we did not win awards to be proud but we felt the proud to have lots of experience and sharing, a new perspective for our further paintwork and the biggest gain was the international friendship we started.

On the other hand; I have some hesitations on such things should be brought into forums or not. I think such topics in public forums can not bring awards back but can bring some incorrect suspicious thoughts to minds about honorable shows and honest judges who does their utmost.
Bestest regards
Engin

 

[ivopreda]

some cosiderations

As promised I will check the Roberto’s result, I need some more days to do that but I’ll do soon.

Every shows has good and bad things, every shows has good and bad judges… but I’m not sure that our aim has to be the result.

Look at http://www.lugdunum-figurines.com/ for reportage. Our French friend are working to complete it but many pictures are available.

Soon others will have pictures form the show.

About judging.. I never thought that all the judges are perfect, it’s impossible. Each of us has his own preference, his own vision and I think is impossible to be completely objective.
For this reason LPS is the only ( at my knowledge ) show that has 5 judges for each class. This 5 judges are out of competition and come from different experience and are from different level. I don’t want a totally technical judgement and in the mean time I don’t want a too low judgement .
Team are composed mixing people with different back ground to assure an average result,

But out of the judging and the medals can I say that my goal as organizer of the show is the friendship atmosphere seen in many different moments? I don’t know if Roberto has seen the speed painting on Sunday morning there were Cartacci, Ruina, Balloni, Ipperti, Pozzati and some other, painting in a very small table enjoying to paint together with 40 people trying to catch some secrets from then. I had to stop them because they really enjoy the situation.

I don’t know in Roberto cames to the pub during late evening, he lost the possibility to speak with Greeks, French, English, Irish, German, Spanish and Italian in front of an huge beer…

I like to met people, I win and I lost, I was happy and I was hungry for the result…but this ever didn’t leave me the pleasure to stay with the other.

Ciao

Ivo PREDA