Politics at S. Vincent

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Dear Ivo
if a mistake has been made i was very unlucky.If not so be it.
I'm happy to accept the result as they are.It was never my intention to ask for an award and my criticism were not directed against one person in particular.I do understand that judging is subjective and two days after the competition it does not seems important anymore.
Thank you for answering and i hope no hard feelings
sencerely
Roberto
 
May I ask a question that has always been on my mind since I attended my first exhibition a few years ago? Why do show organizers insist on entrants putting their names or nationality beside their figures? Coming from a background in airplane modelling, many IPMS organizations insist that all entries are "anonymous", in that only an entry number and title appears beside the piece to be judged, no names or nationality. It probably wouldn't make any difference to the "famous" painters and sculptors, as I think we could all pick out a Bill Horan figure in an instant, but perhaps it may avoid the type of problem Roberto related in his post. It would be difficult to be biased against a U.K. painter if nobody knew he was from the U.K., right? Well, I always wondered why we do this in the wonderful world of figure shows. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.
 
I have no experience with international shows, but generally IMO competitive attitude at shows should be accepted and satisfied, I think everyone would like to get a medal (that's why they are given), have his/her figure in magazines, enjoy the fame :) etc. If you only go to meet people, which is very or even more important of course, then you can go without your figures, meet people and show them your work on the net (imagine Carl Lewis at OG on 100m being last, saying I enjoyed it a lot, I didn't run faster, cause I like no wind in my face :D, just joking).
The joy in painting is the very basic of modeling, but that only will not help shows to grow and improove, which are the biggest platforms to show and make our hobby more popular. Or don't hand out medals, make just an exhibition.
I really don't want to critise the show, I'm not an expert, I wasn't there, didn't see the competitor's artworks yet, but again generally, there must be some kind of consistency in judging at any big show vs another, just as in 'our' case, otherwise painters will change to lottery, leave painting for joy and 90% less people will see his/her figures and shows go slimmer.

Just my opinion.
Denes
 
I don't know about LPS, but at other shows I've attended it would be the rare occasion that an exhibitor would go away with nothing. If an exhibitor got nothing, it was because they had exhibited in a category above their capability. If the organizers are doing their job, they would advise the exhibitor to consider dropping to a lower category. This is rare as well. Most of the time the pieces are entered in the proper class. I have seen a few folks left out of the awards because a page from the awards list, or a judges score sheet was lost in the shuffle. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the organizers if perhaps some mistake was made.
 
I have never seen this on the show's i visit here in Europe.

marc

To be fair, I have never been to a European show, so perhaps this is a North American custom. I only asked because Roberto had mentioned he put his nationality as "U.K." on the entry. I know that in both American based shows that I have entered in the last few years, names of the artist are displayed along with the figure. Having said that, I have NO complaints and have always felt I was treated fairly by the judges, whether I won anything or not.

Regarding Denes humorous metaphor of Carl Lewis, does anyone else foresee mandatory drug testing for medal winners at future shows? This could prove disastrous for the hospitality suites!:)
 
From the pictures I have seen of Mr. Spaolonzi's work it is hard to believe that he has recieved no acclamation whatsoever. Unless the standard was unbelievably high I think that Mr.Spaolonzi has an issue. But I can't say because I was not there.I've heard many say that you don't go to shows for the medals. Whilst in some ways that may be true, I think that most of us are big fat liars. If you enter a figure in competition you would love to have some recognition. If not put a tag with it that says 'not in competition'.
It's a pity many of you don't read Italian because you could have read all the trash that was written with regards to the BOS at Euromilitaire on an Italian forum. Some of them are from people associated with LPS. One even asked " who knows what goes through the head of the judges?" Well, I was a judge at Euro and I know what passed through my head. And it won't prick my conscience because it's clear !!!!

Stephen Mallia
 
Hola Stephen.
I can read italian (more or less) and with some nonsenses there were some critics worth to be read.
I have had the same experience that Roberto but in the other way, some (many) years ago. To win gold in a World Expo (Paris96) and almost nothing at Euromilitaire.
Of course it is very dispointing not to see your work awarded but I think that must not be a dramatic matter. I think that when the results of a competition are unfair they are, like we say in Spain, "throwing stones on your own roof". People will go to other shows and the faulty shows will almost dissapear.
Most of the judges do their task the better they can but, besides this, the results of the competitions are many times slightly biased in favour of certain subjects or styles or wathever.
Take it easy, we are humans!

Diego
 
From the pictures I have seen of Mr. Spaolonzi's work it is hard to believe that he has recieved no acclamation whatsoever.
I think that's a fair comment; and I have seen Roberto's work in the flesh a couple of times.

But as many of us know (Stephen and I certainly do) this happens at shows. I think it's just something one has to be realistic about. Even with the Open System, which is the best way to run a show IMO, you can leave feeling that you didn't get a fair shake so there's no perfect system.

It's a pity many of you don't read Italian because you could have read all the trash that was written with regards to the BOS at Euromilitaire on an Italian forum.
Off-topic but out of curiosity: was there something in particular that it was felt should have won BOS?

Einion
 
hi
i'd like to pick on something that Denes has said.No competition.
Why not.It is actually a good idea.I have worked on a similar idea for some time.For those of you who can read italian on figurinitaly some modellers have noticed a decline in attendance at L.P.S. in both exibitors and public.
At Euro was the same.Also the average age of modellers is 40 something
I think young people are more inclined to paint Fantasy.
I've also noticed that sometimes I can appreciate a figure more if i see a picture of it first.Further more i think that the level historical miniature painting has reached should be presented much better to the general publc.
I'm sure many of you have noticed the surprise of security guards at airport when shown the content of your cases.They have no idea that these kind of objects exist If well displayed ,each figure at the time maybe with a large picture above. It could create an exhibit.This could last for a month at the time
and would include only pre 20th century pieces so not to offend anyone.
Also individual clubs could organize painting lessons and this could be advertised at the exibit.
and so on......
Does anyone thik this could become a reality??

Roberto
 
Turn your frown upside down

Hi guys

I'm very pleased to see this thread has turned from negative to positive.:D

Now that we've had a chance to throw our "two cents" in, we Planeteers are now starting to discuss how to improve our enjoyment of modelling, and get more satisfaction from attending and presenting at shows.

There is nothing to be gained by making accusations against judges; they are people just like us - passionate, dedicated figure modellers. Please, let other on-line forums do that. This Planet is too good to spoil with trash talk.

It's hard for me to look at the pics of the models that didn't win at LPS, and not wonder at the standard of the models that DID win. I'd kill to be as talented as you are, and I can certainly see why you are disappointed with the results at LPS. All I can say is "Better luck next time.";)

Your suggestion to hold "display only" model shows has merit for a number of reasons. :)

Firstly, I wouldn't want to enter my figures in a competition if I didn't think I had some chance of receiving some recognition. The recognition I enjoy is listening to people's comments as they view my models on the tables, and sharing my love of modelling with them. I don't enter comps to win awards, but I have won a few, and I get a tremendous buzz when I do, and I grumble and grizzle when I get passed over by the judges. It's only human.

Secondly, I think it can be threatening and intimidating to those modellers of modest modelling skill (and I am one of those), to put your best work up against professional masters. I know plenty of modellers who don't enter club comps because they lack the confidence to expose their work to criticism. This could possibly explain why the number of modellers entering major comps in recent years has been falling. As the quality of sculpting and painting produced by so many gifted professional artists leaves most of us gasping in awe, it does present a very daunting standard for enthusiastic amatuer to be compared to.

Thirdly and finally, we Planeteers should use our forum to exchange positive ideas, tips and encouragement and share our love of figure modelling, not vent our frustrations and make unproven accusations. There is no perfect way to "judge" our models, we all know that. But we can "appreciate" our models in a non-competetive way that rewards participation with encouragement.

At WASMEx, the Western Australian Scale Model Expo, every junior and intermediate entrant receives free kits as a reward for putting an entry into the competition, regardless of the standard, or if it wins a medal. Over the past 7 years the number of junior and intermediate entrants in the comp has quadrupled. Now many young modellers are attending local model clubs and learning new skills from "old grey haired" modellers like myself, and gaining huge enjoyment and satisfaction from their hobby. The fact that many of them gain their enjoyment in figure painting from the fantasy/ war gaming genre is simply a sign of the times.:cool: If we "senior" modellers don't encourage these younger modellers to participate in comps, and join model clubs, our hobby has no future.:(

Guys, IMHO that's what ALL international, national and local shows should be about. They are a showcase for our hobby and the individual skills and artistic talents of modellers, and an opportunity for modellers to share their love of their hobby with others.

Now that this thread is on a positive spin, can the author of this thread please turn his :mad: to a :) ?

Cheers
 
Whether one should compete or not is a matter of personal preference.

However, if a show, and I stress the IF, as I was not there, doesnt take fairness seriously it will pretty soon begin to loose respect.

First international figurepainter is going to stop appearing, then those far away, as well as visitors. Declining visitors means that its not so much in it for the traders. And suddenly the show is dying.

In my book there is nothing wrong with being competive as long as you are not a sore looser and play fair. And it doesnt mean I dont enjoy the other things as well. One of the best moments Ive had at Euro where the chat I had with Rob, drinking coffee outside in the sun on Sunday. (And of course the PF group photo aka "The dirty halfdozen", what happend to that picturer?):D

And as I said before, it is not wrong to question results as long as its done in a civilized way, and the answers should be in the same manner.
Sometimes its the only way for organizers to know if a judge should be replaced or not.

Cheers
 
Youve made some good and vaild points too, Tony!

It also often strikes me how helpful modellers are in general. Even due to the fact that there are competitions and some make money out of their hobby it just amazes me how helpful we are in general. We discuss modelling and teach each new techniques and critizes.

What other hobby does that?

Addtionally Im also amazed how much time and trouble fellow modellers can take help another modeller on the other side of the globe that he have never seen or met? Be sending a spare part or checking references etc.

I agree with a friend that recently wrote that shows and awards made him put in more work and effort into every project. So it spurs him to do his best and I must say I feel the same way. On the ohter hand there are quite many talented people out there.

Cheers
 
Easy now
for a lot of people this is a business and companies compete through
their painters at main competitions when launching new figures (sometimes in commercial classes?).There is also a lot of traiding done.
Also these professional painters are in reality artists and have their egos
(and i do not mean in a negative way).
So it is not all cuddly and fluffy.
So since many of us are the foot soldiers that keep the thing going we should be able to express ourself(and should not be always be in a positive way)it would also be nice if the big companies would contribute to the price giving side of the competitions.
That would be also a good incentive
Roberto
 
Many good points written and when something has pontentionally money in it, it will be business soon, ran in business manners, be realistic, but whatever happens, big international shows should not go into a ding-dong fight! (just from what Stephen said, how Italians commented Euro this is not the first time). These are among THE SHOWS in Europe and will have a big impact on the hobby! Therefore I think it's good to speak about it, even better would be to do something about it (and I guess it's not only an organization issue, but everyone's).

Easy to say :D
D
 
Diego, I agree with you completely. We should not make a drama out of it and should move on. What you mentioned happened to me too and after some hot discussion I decided that life is too short to argue over these things and continued on my way.
A few valid points have been made regarding the shows without competitions. A valid point. Here in Malta, our club organizes just a show and no competition. No point in that. Having said that, at international shows, there are people making a living out of this, either part time or full time. Getting recognotion for them would be a curriculum for their business. But then again...that's another matter !!

Stephen Mallia
 
Just to turn a little the tide ... what was this year's BOS in LPS? I spoted a small pics from Kostas Koriotelis agin with a fantasy psido-historical vignette with a foot soldier dressed with a crown which resembled Jesus's and a tree behind that looked like a cross ... it puzzled me so what is exactly this rendition ... a bit surealistic IMO!

Ivan
 
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