Questions about mixed media.

[ausf]

After reading and absorbing the wealth of material here and seeing the amazing results you guys produce, I'm going to try my hand at some new materials and techniques.

First off, I want to make a mannequin instead of a simple armature and use Super Sculpey Firm for clothing in addition to Aves for the head. My concern is that the four different materials: resin, metal, Aves and SSF must expand and contract differently when heated.

If I add Aves details (ears and face) to a resin skull, surrounded by a Sculpey hood and then bake it, how does it all stay together without separation (I'm not suggesting it doesn't, I just can't wrap my head around these three completely different products behaving alike under heat)?

Does it degrade over time?

 

[btavis]

There is no shrinkage/expansion with epoxy or resin. Not sure about Sculpey. Metal will expand but usually at the low temperatures used for curing Sculpey I doubt it would have any effect.

I have not seen any degradation of those materials in the ten years or so that I have been modeling.

 

[gordy]

Interesting questions..

One thing worth mentioning: Let things cool off slowly. Don't remove from your heat source until it has cooled.

 

[bonehead]

Don't do it!

After reading and absorbing the wealth of material here and seeing the amazing results you guys produce, I'm going to try my hand at some new materials and techniques.

First off, I want to make a mannequin instead of a simple armature and use Super Sculpey Firm for clothing in addition to Aves for the head. My concern is that the four different materials: resin, metal, Aves and SSF must expand and contract differently when heated.

I can tell you how to go about doing this: DON'T do it!

Sculpey sticks to nothing but itself - even that is iffy sometimes. So, if you intend to do clothing in Sculpey, then you will want to do the entire piece in Sculpey. You cannot add plastic to Sculpey either. There is a chemical in Sculpey that will melt plastic over time.

My question here is, why would you want to make the head in Aves in the first place? It is much less forgiving than Sculpey for sculpting faces because with Aves your working time is limited, while with Sculpey, you can work and rework it forever if you like. It stays soft until you bake it. Aves stays soft for about an hour and a half - tops.

Sculpey cannot be built over resin castings either. Sculpey should be thought of as a stand-alone material. If you want to use it, then use it exclusively. This should not put you off however, because many of our Russian friends sculpt with European equivalents of Sculpey - and they do pretty damned good with it!

If I add Aves details (ears and face) to a resin skull, surrounded by a Sculpey hood and then bake it, how does it all stay together without separation (I'm not suggesting it doesn't, I just can't wrap my head around these three completely different products behaving alike under heat)?

Does it degrade over time?

You can add Aves, or any other epoxy putty to resin castings. Epoxy putty can be thought of as an "inert" material: it does not generally effect anything it is added to. I do not recommend baking resin castings though. This will cause the resin to give off nasty gasses and smells. Resin also gets soft under heat and can distort. Furthermore, any epoxy putty added to resin can separate when heat is applied. But most of that does not matter anyway, because your idea of adding Sculpey to established epoxy surfaces won't work anyway.

The products do not behave alike under heat. You can bake epoxy putty, but even these differ as to performance under heat. Aves is pretty safe and can be baked along with Sculpey.

Here is what I do, and more importantly, why:

I use resin castings for armature parts. This is for convenience. Metal armature parts would work just as well (although the weight could cause some handling problems). Then all additional sculpting to these basic parts is added with various epoxy putties. I do heads in Sculpey Premo. This is so that I can work them as long as it takes to get them the way I want them. Then once the basic head is baked, any additional work added (such as necks, ears and such) are added with epoxy putty. Adding epoxy putty to baked Sculpey is not a problem because the epoxy is inert and its adhesive properties mean it sticks to sculpey just fine. If you want to see a figure sculpted this way, then go here:

http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37420

If you would prefer to do clothing with Sculpey, then just bite the bullet and do the whole figure with that stuff. Trust me, this is the voice of experience talking. Or you can ignore my advice and learn these things the hard way, just like I did!

Cheers!!

Mike

 

[ausf]

Thanks guys.

Mike, I'm in no position to ignore advice and certainly not yours. You hit upon all my exact concerns.

I use Aves because a chemical sensitivity due to a life long over-exposure to materials, I'm extremely careful when it comes to selection and treatment of anything I work with now. I mold and cast under a closed exhaust system (even mix Aves that way) and wasn't comfortable with the idea of heating anything that wasn't intended to be.

Playing around, I've used resin boot soles and a wire armature, fixing the position with Aves. But as you mentioned in your post (I've read it previously, re-read it now), anything to move the process along is the way to go and my method was way too time consuming due to nature of waiting overnight at each step. I found Anders blog about making a mannequin and it struck me as ideal, saving at least two days of buildup just having the cast pieces ready to go.

I agree, I've seen some remarkable pieces here with Super Sculpey and thought I should try it. For some reason, I thought your motorcyclist's clothes were done that way, but in the reread I see it's Aves.

I love Aves, but in my neophyte miniature work, it seems I get to sculpt for about a half hour, then carve the following day and sculpt some more, which stretches a build out over an extended period. Not that it's bad, I'm 45 with 2 boys, so I have patience, but I took using Sculpey as a compromise in time, but I'm probably off base.

I'm skeptical about getting fine details at 1/35 (or 1/48) with it, but I have no experience besides the stuff my kids get from the craft store, which I hope is much different. I'm sure I'll find a way to use the 3 lbs I have en route, perhaps larger pieces.

Thanks again!

 

[T50]

Good piece of information, Mike!
I want to try Sculpy Premo.

 

[Einion]

I use Aves because a chemical sensitivity due to a life long over-exposure to materials, I'm extremely careful when it comes to selection and treatment of anything I work with now. I mold and cast under a closed exhaust system (even mix Aves that way) and wasn't comfortable with the idea of heating anything that wasn't intended to be.

In this case I would strongly recommend you either get a small oven or similar* to bake your polymer clays**. I'd actually recommend this anyway, but particularly in your case

Or buy a saucepan exclusively for this purpose and boil-harden. This works pretty well with Fimo, not sure about with types of Sculpey; but generally speaking long as you reach a minimum curing temp and can hold it for a while polymer clays will harden okay, if not exactly as they would for less time at a higher temp.

*E.g. a Crockpot.

**Can also be used for speeding the curing of your epoxy clays too.

Playing around, I've used resin boot soles and a wire armature, fixing the position with Aves. But as you mentioned in your post (I've read it previously, re-read it now), anything to move the process along is the way to go and my method was way too time consuming due to nature of waiting overnight at each step. I found Anders blog about making a mannequin and it struck me as ideal, saving at least two days of buildup just having the cast pieces ready to go.

Speed-cure the epoxy would make the wait less bothersome - you can get it hard enough to continue work in about 15 minutes by heating.

How many pieces do you work on at once out of curiosity?

Or, how many pieces to you want to be able to work on at once? If you do want to work on multiple things simultaneously you can production-line certain tasks, as in any kind of manufacture this would help reduce the total working time; but it can take some getting used to.

I love Aves, but in my neophyte miniature work, it seems I get to sculpt for about a half hour, then carve the following day and sculpt some more...

Why only half an hour of sculpting? For me, for both MagicSculp and Epoxy Sculpt, the initial hardening phase is just about three hours (full cure takes much longer), with a useful working window of about 2-2:30. Working time is longer when it's colder and shorter when it's warm in case you didn't know.

If you want to be able to extend the working time, try a blend of polymer clay with your epoxy - you can extend hardening to four hours and more with only about 10-30% added polymer clay without a huge reduction in the final strength of the piece. This is if left to harden by itself; additional heating may improve this by curing the polymer clay proportion in the mixture but I haven't noticed much difference in the few tests I've done where the proportion was kept to about a fifth.

FWIW I always strongly recommend to work 'wet' as much as possible, reserving carving etc. to the minimum.

Einion

 

[ausf]

Hey Einion, thanks for the reply.

I tried the assembly line approach at first, but found that if I made a mistake it was just compounded by the number of things I was trying. I'm still learning and I'm the type who needs to figure things out piece by piece until I have the whole process lined out, then I can fly. I needed a few tries to figure out the best armature for me, then made templates. Then after a few attempts I realized premaking boot soles really helped. Then shoe laces, buttons, buckles, etc. I certainly will work multiples in the future once I line up all the processes (Attached is a photo of my first complete piece, which I'm actually revisiting with new arms and changes to the coat).

It's not the work time that limits me now as much as it's allowing what I've worked on to set so I don't ruin it.

If heating Aves will accelerate the cure, that would be excellent. What's the best process, baking or water bath? I am familiar with both methods, I used to build my own ovens to vulcanize foam latex and water baths to cure methyl methacrylates for artificial eyes.

I've read that the boiling method for polymer clay won't reach the higher temps to fully cure, have you noticed any issues?

I have a small test kiln (again for artificial eyes) that I can easily rig to cure polymer at the desired temperature, but I was planning on getting a small clay dedicated toaster oven. Either one I could just set it up outside on a timer and not worry about fumes or the wild temp fluctuations of a gas home oven.

 

[btavis]

Hey Einion, thanks for the reply.

If heating Aves will accelerate the cure, that would be excellent. What's the best process, baking or water bath?

A crock pot set on low with the lid off will cure Aves in about fifteen - twenty minutes depending on the thickness of putty. I use it all the time since I sculpt very small areas at a time I want it cured quickly so I can move on.

 

[ausf]

A crock pot set on low with the lid off will cure Aves in about fifteen - twenty minutes depending on the thickness of putty. I use it all the time since I sculpt very small areas at a time I want it cured quickly so I can move on.

So, conceivably I could sculpt a pair of boots, cure it while mixing more Aves, when it's lost it's tack, I could sculpt trousers, cure and mix, etc...

That's a perfect solution to my needs.

So just a dry, uncovered Crock pot on low?

 

[btavis]

So, conceivably I could sculpt a pair of boots, cure it while mixing more Aves, when it's lost it's tack, I could sculpt trousers, cure and mix, etc...

That's a perfect solution to my needs.

So just a dry, uncovered Crock pot on low?

That's what I do.

 

[Einion]

(Attached is a photo of my first complete piece, which I'm actually revisiting with new arms and changes to the coat).

Looks great! For a first piece that's really good.

It's not the work time that limits me now as much as it's allowing what I've worked on to set so I don't ruin it.

Ah, okay that makes sense - I'm sure we've all mashed a thumb into an area we've just completed when working on another area of the same subject!

Working on more than one piece at a time - deliberately to allow a certain amount to be done on one thing, to be put aside and still allow work to continue - can definitely help with this. This is what I do when I'm production-lining heads (3-8 on the go at one time) and is the only way IMB to make a dozen or more in a reasonable amount of time.

If heating Aves will accelerate the cure, that would be excellent. What's the best process, baking or water bath?

Boiling for polymer clays only, dry heat for epoxies. Kneadatite might be okay cured by boiling but the clay-like ones will absorb water and the detail would probably disappear as the putty went mushy.

I've read that the boiling method for polymer clay won't reach the higher temps to fully cure, have you noticed any issues?

Basically, no. It certainly works for both SS and Fimo in my experience. You'd best read around online for more on this (lots of info on polymer clays on the Internet) but generally speaking lower temps for longer works fine; some people specifically recommend lower temperatures anyway to avoid issues with scorching for example and to help prevent/minimise cracks in larger-volume pieces.

I think you'd only specifically run into problems for PCs that might have a higher recommended setting temp, where 100°C isn't high enough to be the minimum cure temperature, but it's still worth testing if boiling would be a help.

I have a small test kiln (again for artificial eyes) that I can easily rig to cure polymer at the desired temperature, but I was planning on getting a small clay dedicated toaster oven. Either one I could just set it up outside on a timer and not worry about fumes or the wild temp fluctuations of a gas home oven.

Just the kind of thing I was thinking about. The fumes are definitely a health concern, not generally for the casual user (otherwise they couldn't sell the stuff!) but you know about individual sensitivities.

Beyond that, if we think of polymer clay as being a solid mixture of chemicals that's probably the best way to visualise an appropriate caution level; ditto with epoxy clays, where despite anything we might read it is best to wash hands thoroughly after mixing or handling when 'wet' (or avoid the issue completely and wear gloves).

So, conceivably I could sculpt a pair of boots, cure it while mixing more Aves, when it's lost it's tack, I could sculpt trousers, cure and mix, etc...

Exactly.

Einion

 

[ausf]

Thanks guys, you have helped me out tremendously.

The human head is something I'm familiar with (I have one ) and has always been relatively easy for me to recreate. Even in Aves, it's usually no more than a 2-3 step process: sculpt, detail and repair. The major adjustment was to size, but that was just a matter of customizing tools and a Zeiss head loupe.

It's boots, clothes, etc that has been a maddeningly slow process, made worse by the wait for curing. I'm sure this new info will get me on the right path.

I certainly owe you guys a pint or two.

 

[ausf]

An update:

I mixed up some Aves white for my son to fix seams on his Komet kit (snow day here in NY) and figured I'd experiment a bit. Didn't get a crock pot yet, so I stuck a bit in front of a Halogen fixture and sure enough, when I checked 15 minutes later it was hard as rock. Unbelievably cool. I sculpted a quick skull and a sleeve like piece on wire and stuck that under the lamp. It hardened quick but there was distortion (sagging). I'm not concerned since this was in no way a controlled way of heating, I'll be grabbing a pot first thing tomorrow.

Thanks once more guys.

Addendum:

The Aves overheated under the lamp didn't actual sag. It expanded. I didn't give it too close of a look when it was warm, I noticed the texture was a bit odd, but examined it this morning and when cut through it's riddled with air bubbles. The bubbles weren't on the surface, but uniformly throughout. It remains strong and adhered to the armature (brass wire) and in all respects looks like Aves but just foamy. Almost like volcanic rock. I'm sure I may even find a use for this type of property, but certainly not as a sculpted end product.