Russian technique for painting figures.

[Opsofficer]

Einion,

You , more or less, restated what I said.

And two years might be enough if you have a gift/talent for it and spend the time I mentioned refining it. I am speaking from first-hand knowledge of painters & iconographers my wife knows in Russia and simply stating facts but trying to put them in an amusing fashion that might lighten the thread a bit, hence the use of emoticons in my previous post.

I also know many talented musicians and gifted musicisns and, my friend, there is a night and day difference between developed motor skills and a natural, refined talent - better described as a "gift".

 

[Blind Pew]

To muddy the waters still further, I'm sure I read somewhere that a lot of their stuff is often the work of more than one artist as well. When one looks at the complexities of their painting this claim does make some sense. I also have vague memories of one of their peices being awarded a prize and their being some subsequent confusion as to who the recipient was, which would also lend strength that claim that a lot of their stuff are collaborations of more than one artist.
As previously said, I'm sure they enjoy their 'aura' of mystique anyway. Shame.

 

[Evan August]

Yeah, sure that would be interesting to see how they do it. But I have also heard that there is more than one person involved in these pieces, and I don't know how much I could get out of sbs from them. Personally, I'd rather be able to paint like Jaume Ortiz or Calvin Tan.

 

[TomRiddle]

I am a professional musicain...that is my day job! I play clarinet and saxophone. I got to my level of musicianship by years of practice, study, and just good old fashioned it is what I wanted to do so badly (well) that I stuck to it. I have a natural affinity for certain aspects of my profession. The rest of it was learned, and is continually refined by reapplication of fundimental musicianship through practice, study and listening. I expand my abilities by selecting more difficult music to study, learning score study and conducting, and playing around with different instruments so I can increase my knowledge base. They will pry my clarinet from my cold, dead fingers.

If you want to paint at a high level, you must be ready to dedicate some serious study and practice to it, much like a musician. No one can set a time limit...everyone learns and ingests information at a different rate. It will come in time if you set reasonable goals. Be patient, critical, and mostly just stick to it. (Thank goodness for Easy-Off) Will they be prying brushes from your cold, dead fingers? Gonna take that kind of ambition to make it happen.

BTW...talent is a comfortable, over used word. Talent is a good place to start. I have seen many talented musicians end up doing anything else because they were unwilling to pay the price to reach the next level. Nothing wrong with choosing a different path, just don't get caught up in talent. Stick with what you love.

My 2 cents...

Tom Riddle

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Opsofficer+Aug 26 2005, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Opsofficer @ Aug 26 2005, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You , more or less, restated what I said. [/b]

If you think so you need to read what I said more carefully. You did after all go out of your way to say that you think it would take ten years, which I think is dead wrong (just to be clear, I am speaking of patterns only, not the entire painting gamut on these; more on this below).

Originally posted by Opsofficer@Aug 26 2005, 04:47 AM
And two years might be enough if you have a gift/talent for it and spend the time I mentioned refining it.

Now that is a restatement of what I posted.

If one can't develop the skills necessary with ~two years of dedicated practice you should probably give up trying. To give you some idea of why I think so, most people with the proper context would agree that if you can't develop the ability to draw competently from life in about six months to a year at the outside (with good instruction I must stress) it's likely beyond your reach. What we're talking about here is a lot simpler; if you take the time to try both I'm sure you'll agree. This is of course a very circular argument but there you go

Incidentally, observations of the skills of others are of limited value without a suitable context in the same area, otherwise one's views are necessarily subjective, since we don't know yours it's a little difficult to judge how much weight we might give them.

<!--QuoteBegin-Opsofficer@Aug 26 2005, 04:47 AM
I also know many talented musicians and gifted musicisns and, my friend, there is a night and day difference between developed motor skills and a natural, refined talent - better described as a "gift". [/quote]
I wasn't aware we'd met.

I doubt many people would disagree with your statement here. But to plainly state the subtext of my posts, I have been careful to avoid using words such as gift (which is a term completely overused by those who aren't artists to describe those who are, and vice versa) or making any overt reference to artistic 'talent' - hence the quotes - because that's quite a separate thing to a manual skill such as the ability to paint intricately. This is why I was very careful to say merely keyboard player - and include the other completely non-artistic allusions to make it obvious - because of the connotations a word like musician can carry with it.

In relation to this, and covering Russian miniature work in general, you'll hear comments from modellers at shows wondering about the production-line painting we've heard is employed to paint them, almost invariably followed by a wry comment that it's a shame they give one of the most important jobs - the fleshtones, particularly the face - to the least skilled of the bunch! This is true of virtually every one I have seen in person that I can remember. If the work is done by more than one painter this is an interesting observation on its own (especially with no apparent effort made to address the issue year after year) but if the pieces are the product of a single hand it's even more relevant to the question, artist talent or craftsmanship?

Einion

 

[Opsofficer]

You did after all go out of your way to say that you think it would take ten years, which I think is dead wrong

Einion,

You are fixating on one remark (10 years), taken out of context. Once again, read my post and the following post referring to subtle humor and emoticons. ( The unfortunate side of the internet is that we can't actually hear one another speak.) IF you remember I did initially say, "Einion has summed it up best!".
If you read my posts again very carefully, you will see that I said 2 and then jokingly said 10, then in my next post referred back to the stated time (2) again.

<snip>Some people are born to it and some aren't.

If I'm right about this two years of dedicated practice should be ample for most people with the necessary potential to develop the skillset

Yes, I read more carefully and my remark still stands.

If one can't develop the skills necessary with ~two years of dedicated practice you should probably give up trying. To give you some idea of why I think so, most people with the proper context would agree that if you can't develop the ability to draw competently from life in about six months to a year at the outside (with good instruction I must stress) it's likely beyond your reach. What we're talking about here is a lot simpler; if you take the time to try both I'm sure you'll agree. This is of course a very circular argument but there you go

I have.

I wasn't aware we'd met.

Regarding the use of "my friend" - it's more a colloquial term. I used it instead of "pardner ", a truly Texas term that I did not think you'd be familiar with. Sorry for the confusion it caused you.

I have been careful to avoid using words such as gift (which is a term completely overused by those who aren't artists to describe those who are, and vice versa)

How droll.

Talent gift, and natural affinity are all terms which can be used to describe the same thing: someone who is able to do something with great ease by an ability that comes naturally (easily) to them as oppossed to someone who must labor tirelessly to achieve the same.

Now, I do not know about you, but I see no advantage for either of us in continuing this. What say we both quit now on good terms and devote our time to more constructive things? (YES, after reading all we have both said, I realized what a waste of time and effort it has been on both our parts over nothing important, really.)

 

[Wlas]

I'm the villain who inquired ( to Roc ) about the Russian techniques concerning well done repetitive patterns, their consistancy and uniformity et al. I thought the thread would simply end with nothing truly definitve in the form of an answer, but instead found it going off on a tangent ( sadly a typical thing in most dialogue ).
Einion's defensive and pretentious response to Justin's 'my friend' is something completely uncalled for. I ( personally ) know only a few of the Planeteers. Most of you I know simply by your work. Since this Forum exists for miniaturists and we all share the same passion, it's easy for me to think of all of you as my friends. I would find it difficult to understand if any of you did not feel the same way.
One thing that has historically stood out about miniaturists from the times of Madame Desfontaine, to Henri Lion, Shep Paine, Andre Koribanics, Bill Horan and so many, many others has been a willingness to share and answer questions. I can't think of any talent that has been 'secretive' and this has added to the joy of the artform.
But, groan, there is no ready answer to the Russian techniques.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Opsofficer+Aug 27 2005, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Opsofficer @ Aug 27 2005, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I have.[/b]

So which is better, your life drawing or your pattern painting? Which took longer to get to a decent level?

Originally posted by Opsofficer@Aug 27 2005, 07:15 PM

Regarding the use of "my friend" - it's more a colloquial term.

I elected not to call you on that but since you felt it necessary to comment on it I'm well aware it's a colloquial term. I would object to it being used by anyone online in any forum - no matter how long our association - if I only know them casually, much less from a complete stranger, where it reads as condescension.

That and comments like "Sorry for the confusion it caused you." and "How droll" make it plain you like to fence verbally which is fine, but don't expect not to get called on it. How's your sword arm? :lol:

Originally posted by Opsofficer@Aug 27 2005, 07:15 PM
What say we both quit now on good terms and devote our time to more constructive things?

I don't consider debate about topics not to be constructive, otherwise I wouldn't have replied. It's important to give people a realistic idea of the challenge they face, which I think we've done, as well as some understanding of the basis for opinions/views on the subject but as Gordy rightly points out, your mileage might vary.

Originally posted by Majnun@Aug 27 2005, 10:32 PM
Einion's defensive and pretentious response to Justin's 'my friend' is something completely uncalled for.

Opinions vary. Interesting that you characterise my defence of my position as defensive and not Justin's especially in light of the fact that I wasn't trying to put interested people (i.e. you) off trying this. And I'm sorry if you find my writing style to be pretentious, but if you don't like it you don't have to read it. That's one of the beauties of online conversations, you don't have to block your ears or leave a room to avoid someone

As for what you consider an unhelpful tangent, don't you think the question of what craftsmanship actually amounts to is valuable? You, and a lot of other modellers, probably don't consider yourselves to be artists but rather craftsmen; we've had that discussion a few times since the days of MMHQ and it's interesting reading different people's views on it. There are modellers in both camps but if I remember correctly the majority don't think of themselves as artists... now I think, and this is something I have tried to get across to modellers at shows and online many times, that the distinction between the two is largely arbitrary - a case in point being engravers who largely now consider themselves to be artists but in the 19th century were craftsman, or at best artisans.

As amateurs, many of whom do modelling as their only artistic pursuit, I don't think enough of us realise just how much skill it takes to do what we do to a decent standard and we shouldn't belittle ourselves by thinking otherwise. Why is this important? Because some of what people who consider themselves as 'merely' craftsman think is only achievable with some vague notion of an 'artistic gift' is nothing more than practice and the right kind of training - related to my point about drawing above, have a look at The New Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain by Betty Edwards if you want to see what I mean.

<!--QuoteBegin-Majnun@Aug 27 2005, 10:32 PM
But, groan, there is no ready answer to the Russian techniques. [/quote]
You mean other than practice, practice, practice?

Einion

 

[Opsofficer]

Einion,

I do indeed respect your technical knowledge regarding the materials we use. Out of this respect I did not intend or mean any condescension in any of my remarks. If it came across that way then I do apologize. My remarks were sincere and contained nothing hidden.

Having traveled and lived abroad and communicated extensively with people whose primary language is not English, I have seen how even simple things can be poorly communicated and easily misunderstood. So, I am willing to overlook many of the things you said, misunderstood, took out of context, took the wrong way and your subsequent replies and put an end to this.

Very sincerely,

Justin

 

[Calvin]

Some of the works of Russian painters remembers me the drawings from medieval miniature codes, like this:

related to my point about drawing above, have a look at The New Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain by Betty Edwards

Ah!, you have just opened the Pandora's jar... It's a subject which really intrigues me. The interaction between the content of the genetic code and neural stimulation in the first years of life is one of the things on which are based so strange concepts as talent.
A very unknown and most of time misunderstood book about that subject is "The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind" by Julian Janes (1976). In spite of a good inventory of sources, the main theory of Janes has never been taken with the importance he deserve.

Luca

 

[gordy]

Golden Rule #3
There will be no posts meant to offend or hurt any other member, in a manner which is offensive or inflammatory.

Please, let's take any dispute offline

 

[Wlas]

Again all I wanted was an answer to technique.
As fascinating as some of the theories are and as amusing ( or irritating....read into it what you will )as the semantics wars are, the question remains unanswered.
I love verbal repartee personally, but find no value in using it in this Forum.

What's discernable from all the posts:

The Russians are secretive.
The style dates back to the ornate lacquer boxes under the Communists and magnificent triptychs of Czarist eras.
They use a form of tempera.
Google provides nothing definitive.

Since we don't know the technique saying it will take years to master is conjecture.

As an aside, Einion's comment about the finsihed faces is an excellent point. We're usually so entranced by other details we tend to ignore the most important feature on the miniature.

Let me close expressing my appreciation for all the posts in this thread ( even those that wandered ).

 

[socko47]

This discussion has proceeded into the analysis by two "'artists' of language", :lol: of each others comments. I have found their ability to articulate their positions to be very enjoyable. I wish I had such command of the language. I think they give example of the willingness of members of this community to be helpful to others. I personally have benefited from Enion's generosity and knowledge when seeking his help in selecting materials.
To attempt to return this discussion to the issue at hand, l found the pattern painted in "The work of Davide Ronchi" to be of equal quality to the Russian work. The Russian's have a style;one that mystifies us, but I am in awe of many other's work. When I see miniature paintings on banner's or flags, etc. I am just amazed.
Artist? Craftsman? To me a craftsman is someone who puts things together so they appear without evidence of seams, glue, cement, etc. I find a craftsman, with talent, can put up wall paper without seams; or lay tile with a flat surface and even spacing. But he is not an artist if he cannot be creative with his materials and can only follow the instructions of the designer. An additional thought - a blacksmith is generally considered a craftsman till his work, not only, becomes creative beyond standards, but the cost of his work far exceeds the standard. Just don't ask me at what price point he becomes an 'artist'.

 

[gordy]

Russian Folk Art/Motifs

http://www.lacquerbox.com/guide.htm
http://www.bestofrussia.ca/fedoskino.html
http://www.artrusse.ca/zhostovo.htm
http://russianamericancompany.com/info/lacquerboxmaking.htm
http://www.priscillahauser.com/bk_russianfolkart.asp
http://sunbirds.com/lacquer/box/994266

shows vaguely the process

The artist uses a magnifying glass and a single hair brush to paint the delicate details. Multiple layers of enamel and lacquer impart a three-dimensional effect. The box is signed by the artist with the school also identified. Each box is an individual and unique miniature masterpiece.

 

[gordy]

good article
http://palekh.wm.ru/about_eng.html

 

[Wlas]

Good article, gordy, providing what may be the necessary clues.
I'm confident I personally wont mix my own egg tempera, but that explains the covering power.

 

[Roy]

Hi Gordy...those links are all really interesting. There are some beautiful examples...I read in one of the links relating to icon painters and the steps taken to construct, prime, paint and laquer, that several different artists are employed, to paint different aspects and layers of the icon. Seems like it's Russian tradition to have several artists specialise in seperate areas of a given piece and the Vityaz studio seems to be following those traditions very closely.

Thanks for the links.

Roy.

 

[Gordon Shumnoae]

Verry good Gordy here i have found an other example ..this from the
GALERIE PETERHOF in paris that sells glazed Russian folk art including boxes figures,,nesting dolls and wooden eggs i think it is clear that this technique could only have coime from Russia :lol:

 

[custer760]

Hi all,
I have aquired quite a lot of the russian vityaz St.Petersburg figures for my collection and find the detail painting is superb !!! I have tried by intensive observation (Magnifying glass) to get to the bottom of the tecqnique used,but to no avail.I just decided to enjoy them for what they are "Tiny peices of Art" thats what we all should do.
By the way I also own peices by Michael Volquarts,Hardy Tempest,Luca Olivieri and David Lane to name just a few and they attract me just as much. ENJOY !!!!

Pete

 

[Opsofficer]

Originally posted by custer760@Aug 29 2005, 11:37 PM
Hi all,
I have aquired quite a lot of the russian vityaz St.Petersburg figures for my collection and find the detail painting is superb !!! I have tried by intensive observation (Magnifying glass) to get to the bottom of the tecqnique used,but to no avail.I just decided to enjoy them for what they are "Tiny peices of Art" thats what we all should do. <snip> ENJOY !!!!

Pete

Well said, Pete!

Justin