Hi there full beak
It is good , lots of great references in this part as well , feel free to share any
It's what PF is all about
Nap
Samurai Azuchi Momoyama period
- Thread starter myouchin
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Hi there full beak
It is good , lots of great references in this part as well , feel free to share any
It's what PF is all about
Nap
myouchin
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Thanks a lot fullbeak! !
myouchin
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Thank you MaxTheDoc!!
myouchin
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I purchased at amazon in Japan.
Please refer to this link. Registration information has ISBN.
↓
https://www.amazon.co.jp/ビジュアルポーズ集-図説-戦国甲冑武者のいでたち-佐藤-誠孝/dp/4775313681/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_ja_JP=カタカナ&keywords=ビジュアルポーズ集 図説 戦国甲冑武者のいでたち&qid=1560590564&s=gateway&sr=8-1
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どうも有難うございます
myouchin
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myouchin
Well-Known Member
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myouchin
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Please take a look at this thread before reading this article. You can check the process leading up to this point.
↓
https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/new-figure-samurai-1575.409619/page-2
To Tommy Brown,
Fixing the sashimono with nails and sashes may not be the best way. It may have been inconvenient as you say. So a more rational dedicated device was invented to remedy the problem. It's not strange to think this way. Are you saying that it's strange that sashimono hasn't been invented for a dedicated device to secure it as soon as it's started to be used on the battlefield? If so, that way of thinking is more unnatural.Tools are things that become more convenient with the passage of time, with their shortcomings improved.It is strange and unreasonable to think that when a tool was first invented, it was used in the perfect way.
You said.
"So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575."
But I disagree.That's an obvious mistake. I then prove it.
The number of armor in the Sengoku period is very small, and when it was repaired in the edo period, parts that did not exist in the original armor were added, and in some cases kogusoku was replaced with a new one made in the edo period.Due to these circumstances, it is a difficult task to specify when the armor was made.But a true expert will solve tricky problems in a variety of ways.
An effective way to determine when an armor was made is to refer to a reliable old document about the armor.There are not many armors with this condition, but they certainly exist.Please refer to photo A.
A
This armor is Maeda Toshiie's armor.This is the early tōsei dō.There is no photo of the back, but gattari and machiuke do not exist in this armor. There is a record that Toshiie gave this armor as a reward to Okumura Nagatomi, who defended the suemori castle from the attack of Sassa Narimasa in 1584.This means that this armor was made before 1584.This cuirass is characterized by munaita and wakiita.Notice that the shape of Munaita is straight and there are 3 holes (6 points in total on the left and right) to hold takahimo. This is the characteristic of the old cuirass.Japanese armor was improved in various ways from the latter half of the 16th century to the beginning of the 17th century, but among them, cuirass is the easiest to understand the process of change.
B
C
D
E
Photo B is the armor of Uesugi Kagekatsu.Masao Takemura estimates that this armor was completed around 1578.Photo C is mogami dō near the end of the Muromachi period. Photo D is Uesugi kenshin's armor. Not classified as Tōsei gusoku.This armor has little evidence of being used compared to other Kenshin armors, and it is speculated that it was used at the ceremony when Kenshin took office as kantō kanrei in 1561. Photo E is okegawa dō from Chichibu Magojirō Shigekuni. Estimated before 1570, but may be older than Photo D. Armor ABC's mae tateage is 3, but armor DE's mae tateage is 2. This is the characteristic of armor before 1570.
These armors are the ones that existed before and after the 1575.And make sure that the shape of all munaita is straight and there are 3 holes to hold takahimo.
F
F2
Please refer to Photo F next.This armor was given to Date Masamune by Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1590. This fact can be confirmed by the official Date clan document.Researchers in Japanese armor estimate the time to make armor while verifying other conditions using such highly reliable records as one of the criteria.There is a clear basis for their opinion.I do not assert that their work is 100% correct. But I respect their experience and knowledge.
I searched for a photo of the back of this armor but couldn't find it. However, there is a reproduction illustration by Msataka Satō, which depicts brackets(F2).Perhaps this armor is the basis for the opinion of experts that brackets first appeared around 1586-1590.
G
G2
The armor in Photo G(yukinosita dō) is a bit complicated. It is speculated that Helmet was made in 1571, cuirass was made in 1588, and kogusoku was made in the Edo period.There is ita gattari on the back of Cuirass(G2).The authors of Helmet and cuirass are different, but both are signed by the author's name and year of production, so the time of production is specified.But if kogusoku is from the Edo period, ita gattari may have been added to the Edo period.However, if this ita gattari is from 1588, it will strengthen the opinions of researchers.
Next I will verify what the photo you presented proves.
Please pay attention to munaita in Photo F.Its shape is curved and there are 4 holes (8 points in total on the left and right) to hold takahimo. This is a new format that is different from the previous one.Recall the characteristics of armor A-E. You can see the difference.In the later era, tōsei dō's munaita follows this new format.
The same goes for the armor in this photo you presented. Clearly different from armor A-E.In addition, I noticed by observing this picture.This armor munaita has the upper center protruding forward. This is a feature found in the Edo period.The shape of Wakiita is not old either.I can never believe that this armor existed in the 1575.
The cuirass in this illustration is from around 1615 when the form of tōsei gusoku was completed.This armor does not exist on the battlefield of Ngashino. Some terms include those in the Edo period and words that are rarely used in Japan.
This is a 19th century ukiyo-e with no historical accuracy taken into account.Ukiyo-e helps us to understand the society of the time it was painted.But if the subject of the artist's painting was hundreds of years before he was born, we cannot expect to find academic evidence there.
Kojima Sadaoki(Oni Kojima Yatarō) is said to be a personof the Sengoku period, but his name cannot be found in the gunyakutcyō or roster of Uesugi clan to which he belonged.Therefore, it is questioned whether he really existed or not.There are many people named Kojima in Uesugi clan, so it will be difficult to find out the truth.
Similarly, all other photos are disqualified. While these pictures help to understand the details of gattari and machiuke, they do not prove anything when gattari or machiuke first appeared.
I agree with the Japanese expert's view that the first dedicated device for fixing the sashimono appeared in 1586-1590. This is the most probable opinion that should be recognized as a historical fact.The chances of new discoveries updating historical facts in the future are not zero.However, there is no such discovery at this time. This is my conclusion.
↓
https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/new-figure-samurai-1575.409619/page-2
To Tommy Brown,
Fixing the sashimono with nails and sashes may not be the best way. It may have been inconvenient as you say. So a more rational dedicated device was invented to remedy the problem. It's not strange to think this way. Are you saying that it's strange that sashimono hasn't been invented for a dedicated device to secure it as soon as it's started to be used on the battlefield? If so, that way of thinking is more unnatural.Tools are things that become more convenient with the passage of time, with their shortcomings improved.It is strange and unreasonable to think that when a tool was first invented, it was used in the perfect way.
You said.
"So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575."
But I disagree.That's an obvious mistake. I then prove it.
The number of armor in the Sengoku period is very small, and when it was repaired in the edo period, parts that did not exist in the original armor were added, and in some cases kogusoku was replaced with a new one made in the edo period.Due to these circumstances, it is a difficult task to specify when the armor was made.But a true expert will solve tricky problems in a variety of ways.
An effective way to determine when an armor was made is to refer to a reliable old document about the armor.There are not many armors with this condition, but they certainly exist.Please refer to photo A.
A
This armor is Maeda Toshiie's armor.This is the early tōsei dō.There is no photo of the back, but gattari and machiuke do not exist in this armor. There is a record that Toshiie gave this armor as a reward to Okumura Nagatomi, who defended the suemori castle from the attack of Sassa Narimasa in 1584.This means that this armor was made before 1584.This cuirass is characterized by munaita and wakiita.Notice that the shape of Munaita is straight and there are 3 holes (6 points in total on the left and right) to hold takahimo. This is the characteristic of the old cuirass.Japanese armor was improved in various ways from the latter half of the 16th century to the beginning of the 17th century, but among them, cuirass is the easiest to understand the process of change.
B
C
D
E
Photo B is the armor of Uesugi Kagekatsu.Masao Takemura estimates that this armor was completed around 1578.Photo C is mogami dō near the end of the Muromachi period. Photo D is Uesugi kenshin's armor. Not classified as Tōsei gusoku.This armor has little evidence of being used compared to other Kenshin armors, and it is speculated that it was used at the ceremony when Kenshin took office as kantō kanrei in 1561. Photo E is okegawa dō from Chichibu Magojirō Shigekuni. Estimated before 1570, but may be older than Photo D. Armor ABC's mae tateage is 3, but armor DE's mae tateage is 2. This is the characteristic of armor before 1570.
These armors are the ones that existed before and after the 1575.And make sure that the shape of all munaita is straight and there are 3 holes to hold takahimo.
F
F2
Please refer to Photo F next.This armor was given to Date Masamune by Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1590. This fact can be confirmed by the official Date clan document.Researchers in Japanese armor estimate the time to make armor while verifying other conditions using such highly reliable records as one of the criteria.There is a clear basis for their opinion.I do not assert that their work is 100% correct. But I respect their experience and knowledge.
I searched for a photo of the back of this armor but couldn't find it. However, there is a reproduction illustration by Msataka Satō, which depicts brackets(F2).Perhaps this armor is the basis for the opinion of experts that brackets first appeared around 1586-1590.
G
G2
The armor in Photo G(yukinosita dō) is a bit complicated. It is speculated that Helmet was made in 1571, cuirass was made in 1588, and kogusoku was made in the Edo period.There is ita gattari on the back of Cuirass(G2).The authors of Helmet and cuirass are different, but both are signed by the author's name and year of production, so the time of production is specified.But if kogusoku is from the Edo period, ita gattari may have been added to the Edo period.However, if this ita gattari is from 1588, it will strengthen the opinions of researchers.
Next I will verify what the photo you presented proves.
Please pay attention to munaita in Photo F.Its shape is curved and there are 4 holes (8 points in total on the left and right) to hold takahimo. This is a new format that is different from the previous one.Recall the characteristics of armor A-E. You can see the difference.In the later era, tōsei dō's munaita follows this new format.
The same goes for the armor in this photo you presented. Clearly different from armor A-E.In addition, I noticed by observing this picture.This armor munaita has the upper center protruding forward. This is a feature found in the Edo period.The shape of Wakiita is not old either.I can never believe that this armor existed in the 1575.
The cuirass in this illustration is from around 1615 when the form of tōsei gusoku was completed.This armor does not exist on the battlefield of Ngashino. Some terms include those in the Edo period and words that are rarely used in Japan.
This is a 19th century ukiyo-e with no historical accuracy taken into account.Ukiyo-e helps us to understand the society of the time it was painted.But if the subject of the artist's painting was hundreds of years before he was born, we cannot expect to find academic evidence there.
Kojima Sadaoki(Oni Kojima Yatarō) is said to be a personof the Sengoku period, but his name cannot be found in the gunyakutcyō or roster of Uesugi clan to which he belonged.Therefore, it is questioned whether he really existed or not.There are many people named Kojima in Uesugi clan, so it will be difficult to find out the truth.
Similarly, all other photos are disqualified. While these pictures help to understand the details of gattari and machiuke, they do not prove anything when gattari or machiuke first appeared.
I agree with the Japanese expert's view that the first dedicated device for fixing the sashimono appeared in 1586-1590. This is the most probable opinion that should be recognized as a historical fact.The chances of new discoveries updating historical facts in the future are not zero.However, there is no such discovery at this time. This is my conclusion.
Tommy Brown
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- Sep 20, 2014
- Messages
- 155
Hello,
I did say this. "So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575." But this is from your own post. Refer to your quote below. "Thinking" could mean not sure and speculate. "These parts" refer to the brackets. You disagree with your own quote. So don't put your words into my mouth put it back into yours.
There is no document or woodblock prints to show the nail on the back of cuirass.
I am unable to find any of the nail on the back of cuirass. My response to your previous reply did not proof anything. Like I said before I could only find those photos from that particular book and those woodblock prints and again did not proof anything.
So relax. I don't disagree with you. The case is closed.
I did say this. "So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575." But this is from your own post. Refer to your quote below. "Thinking" could mean not sure and speculate. "These parts" refer to the brackets. You disagree with your own quote. So don't put your words into my mouth put it back into yours.
There is no document or woodblock prints to show the nail on the back of cuirass.
I am unable to find any of the nail on the back of cuirass. My response to your previous reply did not proof anything. Like I said before I could only find those photos from that particular book and those woodblock prints and again did not proof anything.
So relax. I don't disagree with you. The case is closed.
myouchin
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Welcome,
You certainly said.
"So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575."
I copied and pasted this word. I haven't made any modifications.I thought it should be accurate when quoting someone else's remarks. That is fair play.But you said you quoted this word from me. I was surprised and really strange. This is not my word.You're just trying to misinterpret the word "Thinking" I used, modify my remarks, and shift responsibility to me.
"So the researchers are not sure and speculate the brackets did not exist as of 1575."
↑ This is definitely your word. And I will quote your words 100% accurately and return them to you.
"So don't put your words into my mouth put it back into yours. "
I don't know what you want to talk to me. Your words are too esoteric for me and Google Translate.Can't you agree with the opinion that sashimono was fixed with nails and sashes because you don't have a picture of the nails on the back of cuirass?Then it's okay. I can't completely convince you because I can't find such a picture either.I disagree with you, but I respect your right to have such an idea.
So what do you think of the Japanese expert's view that the dedicated device for fixing sashimono first appeared in 1586-1590?I have provided sufficient evidence for this. Please let me know your opinion.I want you to have a fair discussion, not a play on words.
garyjd
PlanetFigure Supporter
That's really impressive. Samurai armor is not for the faint of heart that's for sure.
Tommy Brown
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- Sep 20, 2014
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- 155
Hello,
This is going out of hand.
I hope you do understand English and not by using Google translate.
My saying is derived from your quote which has the same meaning as your quote in English may be not in Japanese or from Google translate.
Thank you for your input. Take it easy and have a nice life.
The case is close and nothing further.
さようなら
myouchin
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Hello,
Thank you for your advice. But for me, Google Translate support is essential.I'm sure there are other members who have the same problem with English as I do.Your wishes will be harsh for them as well.We apologize for any inconvenience, but I would be grateful if you could recognize the rights of the minority.
I wanted to talk to you about the samurai, but I can't help if you don't have that intention.I will give up
I hope your knowledge of Japanese armor will be richer than it is now.
The End Goodbye
Forté
A Fixture
Got me excited. Thought there was another samurai sculpt coming from you.
myouchin
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