Searching For Britis Naval Neck Cloth Details Circa Crimean

[Nap]

Hi Gusys ,

I am looking for some pictures with colour details on the "neck cloth" (the piece that sits on the shoulders at the back with the "lines" on it ).

Its fo my VC winner bust , in the picture it looks white ...is that with 3 light or dark blue lines around the edges ?

Any design in the corners ?

Here is the WIP link:

http://www.planetfigure.com/threads/william-thomas-rickard-vc.54235/watch-confirm

Hope this is clear enough ..not too sure of the correct naval term so apologies to all the seaman types on PF .

Pics would be great and/or description would be great

Cheers

Nap

 

[Richie]

Hi Nap,
Uniform for the seamen in the Royal Navy was introduced in 1857. In the dress regulations dated 11 April 1856, it was laid down that marks of distinction were to be worn on the upper part of the left sleeve of jackets.-

• Chief petty officers, crown and anchor, encircled with laurel ; the laurel being changed to oak in 1879.
• First-class petty officers, crown and cross anchor ;
• Second-class petty officers, crown and anchor ;
• Leading seamen, the anchor.
  In the main the early uniform appears to have consisted of:
  - A loose fitting white duck (canvass) shirt or blue cloth
  - Trousers (blue or white) with no pockets, which could be rolled up to the knee.
  - A clasp knife probably attached to a lanyard worn around the waist.
  - One good blue or white suit suitable for inspections and going ashore with:
  - Badges of rank and good conduct on the left arm and
  - Proficiency badges, when introduced, on the right arm eg Gunnery and torpedo.
  - A black silk under a blue collar
  - Boots or shoes were only worn ashore - bare foot being more suitable aloft, but perhaps not so in the engine or boiler rooms, although that said, there are photographs of stokers taking a "stand easy," in bare feet.
  -The tarpaulin windproof and waterproof jacket was made onboard.
  The sennet/sennit hat, removed from kit lists in 1921, a part of the dress of the sailor when uniform was first established, along with a few other items, probably formed a part of the sailor’s irregular uniform for many years prior to 1857, and it or something very similar, was probably associated with the Napoleonic wars. The hat was to be black in home waters, and white when serving in the tropics. The black hat, along with the jacket, sometimes known as the "tar" or "tarpaulin," was abolished in 1891. The white hat or "straw" aka sennet, when out-of-shape, could be stiffened by being painted or moistened with a solution of gelatine, and set to dry on a hat-block.
  The round blue jacket, also sometimes known as the "bluejacket," which formed a part of the 1857 uniform, was also abolished circa 1891, being replaced by the blue jumper.

It would seem to be a plain black silk under a white collar, I presume the 3 tapes on the collar were introduced in/after 1857 which would be after the Crimean war. This therefore might be a later photograph. It might be worth giving Roger (billyturnip) or Joel (taffjones) a shout as they are more up on Naval uniforms than me.
cheers
Richie

 

[Helm]

I have this which bears out what Richie says
Steve

 

[bagelman1952]

I think the piece you are describing is called the collar and would (I believe) have been of white cloth (maybe thin canvass or cotton) with three blue lines. The lines were allegedly to represent Nelsons victories but this is not the case. No other decoration. The modern day equivalent has the colours reversed. In later uniform it would have been attached to the front of the trousers forming a sort of waistcoat front but in you reference photo this is not clear

 

[pte1643]

Hi Gusys ,
I am looking for some pictures with colour details on the "neck cloth" (the piece that sits on the shoulders at the back with the "lines" on it ).

I used to call it the "Tea Towel", but a couple of ex-Matelot mates didn't appreciate that.

As Ken says, it's officially called a Collar.

For "Dress" purposes should have 3 vertical creases, in concertina style, dividing the collar into 4 equal sized partitions. This wouldn't apply to your sculpt though.

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys ,

Thanks so much for all the information , looking at this and the picture I feel that the photograph was taken at a later date with the collar lines on it , I will keep to the the image as much as possible ..its currently base coated !!!!

Helm,

Great picture ....in my references

Richie ,

Thnaks so much for all the regulations ..very interesting to read and now in my references as well ..do the Navy have separate ones to the Army ?

Bagelman1952,

Thanks or confirming no other decorations ...any idea what the 3 lines are for ?

pte1643,

"Tea Towel" ...brave man saying that ...risking beeing spliced at the mainbrace and flogged around the fleet !!!

Any other info always welcome

Nap

 

[billyturnip]

Hello Kev. Unfortunately I don't know much about the Victorian RN and I'm at work so any searching is a bit difficult.
As for the three lines on the tea towel... errr collar, I was informed by a German sailor in a pub in Kiel that they represent the three major battles of Nelson, Nile, Copenhagen and Trafalgar. The Germans and probably also a few other navies have the same three stripes.

Roger.

 

[Richie]

Hi Nap,
Yes there will be different dress regulations for the army aswell, I remember someone asking a question about beards on Victorian soldiers and posted the regulations on here somewhere. Sometimes it's useful to look at the snippets from the regulations as you get an accurate picture of the uniform so to speak.
I believe the 3 lines are pure decoration and they do not represent Nelson's victories.
cheers
Richie

 

[Waterman]

The three lines were just decoration, one theory being that before regulated dress came into being, sailors wore beads for good luck, these manifested into the three lines. Hence then came the custom especially of older ladies of touching a sailors collar for good luck. Originally the collar was just that, put on over the top of the head and fastened at the front by two tapes, the sailors jumper type tunic then wen on and the collar as it was called was pulled out and then over the outside of the jumper. The more risqué women would shout, Oie Jack, come ere an let me touch yer Dicky, referring to the collar, but in actual fact the Dicky was the white front that went under the jumper. This again was just a front and back piece of material open at the sides , and tied with tapes. Later these were made in one piece like a tee shirt, and become known as a white or blue front, depending on whether it was summer or winter dress.

 

[billyturnip]

Completely agree about the stripes being purely decorational I just couldn't help myself from spinning a nautical dit.

Roger

 

[Waterman]

No harm in that Roger. It's like the Black Silk said to be worn as mourning for Nelson, but it's more to do with it being a sweat rag that seaman wore tied around their heads when in action. And did you know that sailors serving on the Royal Yacht, wore a black silk bow, tied on the bum of their bell bottom trousers. It was said to go back to Queen Victoria, and we always remarked that she did have a sense of humour after all.

 

[billyturnip]

I didn't know that.... any other remarks I'll keep to myself.

Roger.

 

[Richie]

I didn't know that.... any other remarks I'll keep to myself.

Roger.

I think you should keep your remarks to yourself after being plied with drink from German sailors and feeding us with duff info. you sailors and grog, blimey I don't know

 

[billyturnip]

I've been fed with plenty of duff info following a plying with drink Richie, I'm surprised I even remember that particular gem.

Roger.

 

[Nap]

Hi to all ,

Roger ,
Avast ye naval type .......10 barrels to the wind eh with a sailor in Keil ......good way to get references!!!!

Richie,

Thanks fro the info ref regs ..interesting as always ..........splice that mainbrace and other nautical terms ........

Thanks guys for making this post fun ..I have watched all the episodes of Capt Pugwash

Nap

 

[Waterman]

I was never a proper Sailor, having taken the Queens Shilling, but Jack always knew that he could rely on us when needed. Despite the rivalry and P--- Taking, we got on well together, you had to, it's a big Ocean.