The Ronin - Ebroin fantastic 90mm novelty to be released soon by Pegaso

[Adrian Cowdry]

I am very much enlightened by your conversation Akaryu and Tadatsugu - and I like the Western peasant I am, I really did like the look of this figure but I was unsure of it's place in authentic figures - Andrea produced a Ronin a few years back which seems more authentic.

This Pegaso figure is beautifully produced as pretty much all Pegaso figures are but I have to say the sword resting pose is very western and medieval more apt for a broad sword and not a katana.

I think the Pegaso sculptors have taken a bit of artistic licensing and produced a figure that would be commercially viable - lets face it the first reactions we all had were that this figure looks good. But on second glance is it right.

As a Western peasant I liked it immediately but as I say I have been enlightened and I do find myself leaning toward the authenticity of a figure more so than artistic licensing. I will add I do love Japanese subjects in figures and I really enjoy seeing such figures but it may have been better to have dubbed this figure Samurai in Training as he appears after your points, Akaryu and Tadatsugu and others, that he is making rookie mistakes (particularly the sword resting) - surely a Ronin (master of past martial arts and no longer Samurai) would not make such rudimentary mistakes.

However I do look forward to seeing an example of this figure finished and on show.

 

[TADATSUGU]

Adrian, I hope that I also speak for Akaryu when I say neither of us want to stop anyone purchasing a model if they like it. There are many levels in this hobby and it caters for fantasy and artistic models as well as historical.
Akaryu and I both have an appetite for accuracy in what is to us probably an obsession with Japanese armour, and I would not expect everyone else to be the same. This is one of those subjects where the more you get into it, the more confusing it gets. We are talking after all about a period which is not exhaustively documented and usually covers anything from the 12th to 19th century, with much earlier periods that, to my knowledge, have never been modelled.

I might also want to buy a model just because "I just like it". (I am already considering how I can adapt this model to make it "right for me", but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a good, straight from the box rendition of the model by another modeller).
I feel that model producers should be open to such critisism, as they charge a lot of money for what we assume to be correctly researched models. My only intention in critisising a new release is to hopefully inform other members of any errors that trouble me, so that they can make their own choices on changing the model if they feel the need to.

 

[akaryu]

That is the way I see it too Tadatsugu. As for you Adrian, wether a "Western peasant" or not, please do enjoy the figure, my/our comments are just to point to the inconsistencies in the labeling of a figure which doesn't stick exactly to what it is supposed to represent and this only in a field I happen to know something about. I rarely comment on any new figure and prefer to refrain from negative critic, but I would be equally critic of other offerings if they'd be in a field I'm partial about. Indeed I dislike representations of soldiers with a well known Hollywood face, IMO if someone wants to sculpt Tom Pitt or Brad Cruise well just call them that, but don't try to sell them as something different. The reason I have never commented on that is they don't interest me so I keep my thoughts to myself. But if a manufacturer slaps a name on an historical figure he might as well do his homework correctly and thoroughly!
That said, there is no harm in painting anything you like as you like it, after all it's a hobby and a rather private at that. The late Jean Hoyos who was one of the pioneers in selling quality figures here in Belgium liked to say: La figurine, il faut la faire avec du sérieux sans se prendre au sérieux!

Hold fire, back the the books and brushes

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

David

If I like a model I will buy it - have no fear. In fact I have taken a look at the Pegaso website and there is the finished figure - which I will attach. It "looks" great - but judging by comments here it could be more accurate - however as I say if I like a kit have no fear I shall buy it.

What I do appreciate more than anything is the expertise that can be tapped into on this site. If a figure is wrong then it should be critiqued - it may still look good. And to the unassuming eye this figure does look good. It wil be the perfectionist that will take a look at this figure and say "Nooooo" this is all wrong.

But that is my point about artistic licensing - this figure looks superb and I am sure it will sell - Ronin is a title that will help it sell as opposed to Rookie Samurai or Novice to the Master...Don't get me wrong though I love Pegaso figures and have a few made and stashed away.

To be honest the more I look at it the more I am leaning to getting one. I do like the red armor as well. Although the Blue illustration earlier in this thread looks cool too.

Artistic licensing goes a long way to selling much - the best illustration is one of my favourite films Excalibur - Arthur is based on legends from 4th and 5th century - the film has Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table in shining armour - totally wrong but hey it works and it works well. It comes down to making money. If the Ronin figure were totally accurate then it might possibly be boring and then not a seller.

 

[akaryu]

"Ronin is a title that will help it sell as opposed to Rookie Samurai or Novice to the Master."
That's exactly the point Adrian. One last nitpicking quibble: the blue in the earlier illustration is printer's licence, the armor could be red, all shades of brown,often black (warm or cold),even gold, but no, not blue

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

Akaryu

Can I just address one of your points - I think I have answered everything else by replying to David. As I say if I like it I'll get it and I think I am talking myself into this new Pegaso Figure.

However as to your movie references - I love movies and I love figures of the actors - one of my latest favourites is the Prisoner of War from Mitches Military Models - better known as The Cooler King or of course we all know him as Steve McQueen - from The Great Escape - not an historical figure but he is portraying a USAAF POW (Possibly RAF Eagle Squadron we don't actually know) - this is a film I grew up on and I have wanted a good likeness figure of him for ages - there are others on the market but not quite as good as the MMM one. However then we come to your comment about Brad Cruise etc. Again the latest tank commander is Pitt from Fury and we have a suberb Damian Lewis from Band of Brothers and there is Tom Hanks from Private Ryan...all great likenesses yet not historic. Well this is artistic licensing at it's extreme - the movie is representing a story (not always accurate) and the figure is representing the soldier with the actors features.

One of my favourite films is A Bridge Too Far - I'd love a few figures of the cast of that film but that would not be accurate and the real thing can easily be corroborated. Whereas say Zulu has very few image references as to what the main soldiers looked like and Mike Hill did a great job in putting Caine, Baker etc in situ with his figures.

Of course it could be worse - The Last Samurai could have had a plethora of Tom Cruise figures!

However I digress - I am sure you know but as soon as the manufacturer states anywhere that X figure is (add celebrity here) the celebs agent starts on the warpath to get royalties and all these manufacturers who make such figures would be out of business - as it is the small numbers they produce barely keep them going -so we will have many more I am sure of Secret Agent (James Bond), Web Slinger (Spiderman), Science Officer (Spock), Man Made Monster (Frankenstein Monster) and so many more...if the copyright licence is too much then we have to accept the bending of the rules and I for one do like in my collection Terminators, Connery's, McQueens, Marvins, Caine's and I want ahem I WANT! Where Eagles Dare - Burton and Eastwood Bust or full figures!

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

"Ronin is a title that will help it sell as opposed to Rookie Samurai or Novice to the Master."
That's exactly the point Adrian. One last nitpicking quibble: the blue in the earlier illustration is printer's licence, the armor could be red, all shades of brown,often black (warm or cold),even gold, but no, not blue

More Artistic licensing - but it looks cool.

Do you suppose this Ronin is the stuff of fantasy?

Is he something from the comic books?

 

[akaryu]

Adrian, I like good movies too and I just took that example, the Cruise/Pitt thing to illustrate that I usually refrain from making negative comments except on things I am passionately interested in and to point out the potential pitfall of taking Hollywood soldiers for the real thing, at least IMO. But you are absolutely right about the legal sharks waiting to bare their fangs and warm their pockets.
Which brings us to the matter at hand, this "ronin" will not cause any lawsuits and he isn't something from a comic book either, the illustration shown earlier is probably late 19th-early 20th century from a general work on the Far East or on military matters, that's all. But please enjoy painting him!

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

I enjoy figure painting and making whatever I do and I will enjoy this...even if the accuracy is a little fantastic...

But movie wise and figures are very much artistic licensing. Don't refrain from making comment....if you disike such and such then lets have a chat - that is what is so stimulating about this forum.

I'm here for an argument...

No you're not...

and so it goes on....

As for this Ronin figure I am sure it will prove popular and from all the comments here I think the sculptor took some artistic licensing in the end I like it...I will probably get one. In the end it is art - the sculpt and how any one of us finishes it with paint and that ultimately is what this hobby is "our art"...it could be more accurate that has to be the bottom line.

 

[TADATSUGU]

I think we are all going off topic about the movie thing, maybe a new thread is needed?
Having said that, I have to agree with Akaryu again (were we seperated at birth or something?).
I have no problem with movie characters as long as they are presented as such. The inherent problem I have is that, for example, you want to represent Stanley Baker/Michael Caine as in Zulu. You then have to then re create the costume they wore in the film, which is more often than not incorrect for the historical action being depicted.
For this reason I feel that such models should be declared, and judged, as Film/TV catagory figures and not alongside the relevant scale catagory for historical models at a model show. (Just my opinion, thats all).
By the way Adrian, I've seen a few Last Samurai figures around. I actually like that film a lot, even though it couldn't be further from reality if it tried. I will continue to enjoy watching it, but I won't be modelling it!

 

[TADATSUGU]

Back to topic.
I found a couple of pictures from a reputable Japanese book which shows the sword held tip down, which shows the Japanese would not consider the pose anacronistic. Do note however that the blade is shown sheathed, as I previousy suggested. The first picture is a Late Heian/Kamakura period Samurai. the other two show the dress suggested for a ronin in the late Edo period, (another picture of the Ronin with his hair worn loose shows it at just below shoulder length). Sorry about the poor picture quality I was in a hurry!

 

[akaryu]

Even in present day Zen Nihon Kendô Renmei iaidô there is a brief moment at the end of the practice session where in kneeling position you take the sheathed katana from the obi, and briefly touch the floor with the end of the scabbard in a vertical position with extended right arm, before placing the katana in front of you and bow to the sword, all this with the katana safely sheathed in its scabbard and never leaning on it, sheathed or not. Touch a Japanese friend's or a practioner's katana and you can delete him/her from your friends list!

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

Very useful photo's and as I said earlier useful info - one of the reason's I like this forum site - I tap into a font of knowledge.

As for the movie figures - well the Damian Lewis half figure is accepted as one of the best in recent years - but it is Damian Lewis as a true life member of history.

As was Stanley Baker and Michael Caine in Zulu - these figures are and actors are representing historical figures - if we were talking about Arnie as the Terminator then yes the need for detail is required down to the unth detail on screen - but representing an historical figure I don't agree that the uniform should be what the costume designer came up with. If a figure of Henry VIII came up with Damian Lewis likeness do we have the costume from Wolf Hall or from the many paintings that are available? Would it matter - we all have opinions but purists will say all Henry VIII figures should be based on historical paintings.

Either way I have discovered that there are more movie fans here...