why i don't paint "historical" figures

[Oda]

Some years ago in another forum, I pointed out the robe of a 54mm figure of Qin Emperor that won gold in Euro Expo was painted the wrong color. I also included in that comment with all the details and supporting material. The yellow dragon robe that was only started to exist in Tang dynasty a few hundred years later. Some of my comments was later edited and deleted by the administrator. I guess well painted is more important than historical accuracy in the eyes of most people. Eventually this painted figure by the famous figure painter was used as box art for the manufacture.

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I remember it.If it makes any difference,this is what I consider miniature modelling at its best and yes this is NOT rivet counting.This is historical documentation,it is a lot of fun doing it because it implies a great learning process and thank God there are still people doing it.

Oda.

 

[Babelfish]

I remember it.If it makes any difference,this is what I consider miniature modelling at its best and yes this is NOT rivet counting.This is historical documentation,it is a lot of fun doing it because it implies a great learning process and thank God there are still people doing it.

It's only "miniature modelling at its best" when it's backed up by an actual finished model.

Anyone can read books and do research, but as Franck said it's very rare that such keyboard "experts" back up their fine words of wisdom by showing us the results of their work at the modelling bench. Hence my instinctive response to these guys is "either put up or shut up".

- Steve

 

[Oda]

It's only "miniature modelling at its best" when it's backed up by an actual finished model.

Anyone can read books and do research, but as Franck said it's very rare that such keyboard "experts" back up their fine words of wisdom by showing us the results of their work at the modelling bench. Hence my instinctive response to these guys is "either put up or shut up".

- Steve

Of course.Research is done in order to produce a more accurate model.It is not done academically nor just to tell others off.We are modellers not professors.That said,I still believe that the documentation part is fun.

Oda.

 

[Mirofsoft]

Some years ago in another forum, I pointed out the robe of a 54mm figure of Qin Emperor that won gold in Euro Expo was painted the wrong color. I also included in that comment with all the details and supporting material. The yellow dragon robe that was only started to exist in Tang dynasty a few hundred years later. Some of my comments was later edited and deleted by the administrator. I guess well painted is more important than historical accuracy in the eyes of most people. Eventually this painted figure by the famous figure painter was used as box art for the manufacture.
/quote]


Perhaps because inspirational source was :

 

[yellowcat]

That's not a yellow dragon robe. Qin Emperor wears black or dark colour.

 

[fogie]

We all have something in common here - we enjoy painting (figures, AFV's, whatever). Some of us also enjoy historical research - not
as an academic exercise but as an adjunct to our painting. In sharing our thoughts on this a bit of constructive 'knock-about' is good but
things start to go wrong when we resort to derogatory comments to diminish someone else simply because we don't agree with them. I
do hope this one doesn't follow that route.

Mike

 

[Oda]

We all have something in common here - we enjoy painting (figures, AFV's, whatever). Some of us also enjoy historical research - not
as an academic exercise but as an adjunct to our painting. In sharing our thoughts on this a bit of constructive 'knock-about' is good but
things start to go wrong when we resort to derogatory comments to diminish someone else simply because we don't agree with them. I
do hope this one doesn't follow that route.

Mike

Second that!

Oda.

 

[Ray Stout]

What we have to remember, is that up to the 19th century, all dyes were Plant or Vegetable based, with, perhaps one or two exceptions, so being out in all weathers, and with Sunlight, the colour WILL fade. The Reds and yellows of the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries would be Red and Yellow Ochres based. I've only seen one good depiction of faded uniforms and this was in the 18th century based film made in 1969, called "Where's Jack" based on the Newgate Calender story of Jack Sheperd and Johnathan Wilde. It was made by Cy Enfield and Stanly Baker after they made Zulu. The British uniforms are almost Russet except for the under arms where the Red can still be seen. If you can, make the effort to view it. Ray

 

[fogie]

This is an extracted quote from Richard Tennant's book on British Napoleonic Army
Uniforms - thought it might be relevant to some.

" In 1804 the English dye maker George Field refined the technique of making an
improved pigment from madder by treating it with alum and an alkali. Even so,
it is highly likely that the Redcoat wool came in many different shades of red even
when it was new. Add to that, the natural sun-bleaching in the field, and the continual
soaking and drying experienced by the army, it would fade the tunics to a pink or
ruddy or russet brown on a long campaign in a hot climate. The non-commissioned
officer's red coat issued under the warrant of 1768 was dyed with a mixture of madder
red and cochineal to produce a "lesser scarlet"; brighter than the red worn by other ranks
but cheaper than the pure cochineal dyed scarlet garment purchased by officers. "

Mike

 

[Ray Stout]

Absolutely Mike. Then there's the case of the uniforms worn by the French at the Invasion of Fishguard. These were captued British Uniform Jackets from Quiberon and then dyed Blue!! That incident when written down is funnier than the best Sit-Com Ray

 

[fogie]

Why Fishguard, I wonder ? Did they know something we didn't ? Still.......history is like that - you couldn't make it up, could you ?
A couple of centuries earlier the Spanish raided a little village hereabouts called Mousehole and set the place on fire. Today the only
original building to survive is 'The Kegwynn Arms' .....and that's only because the villagers had the great presence of mind to leave
their houses to burn and dash down to the pub and throw pints of beer over the roof to keep it cool.

Mike

 

[Ray Stout]

The French had launched a Raid in Ireland a couple of years previously, and were convinced the Welsh would rise up in revolt, so, a force of 1400 "Soldiers" half were french convicts, and the other half were Irish, lead by a 70+ yr. old American were launched into Pembrokeshire at Fishguard. There was to be a Wedding that week, so the whole village was awash with booze, which was promptly drunk by the force. A rather well-built female Cobbler Gemima Nichols, toured the district with a Pitchfork and "Captured" 25 French Soldiers, single Handedly much the worse for ware from Booze. The local populace had run off but began to stream back the day after. The French viewing this from a distance, and not knowing traditional Welsh Dress of the Ladies with their Red Shawls, and Tall Hats mistook them for Troops, and promptly offered to surrender much to the suprise of the local Militia. The incident remains the only Battle Honour on British soil, and because of the panic it spread, The Bank of England issued Paper Money for the first time. Like I said, you couldn't write this comedy Ray

 

[fogie]

Brilliant !!!

Mike

 

[Martin Antonenko]

The French had launched a Raid in Ireland a couple of years previously, and were convinced the Welsh would rise up in revolt, so, a force of 1400 "Soldiers" half were french convicts, and the other half were Irish, lead by a 70+ yr. old American were launched into Pembrokeshire at Fishguard. There was to be a Wedding that week, so the whole village was awash with booze, which was promptly drunk by the force. A rather well-built female Cobbler Gemima Nichols, toured the district with a Pitchfork and "Captured" 25 French Soldiers, single Handedly much the worse for ware from Booze. The local populace had run off but began to stream back the day after. The French viewing this from a distance, and not knowing traditional Welsh Dress of the Ladies with their Red Shawls, and Tall Hats mistook them for Troops, and promptly offered to surrender much to the suprise of the local Militia. The incident remains the only Battle Honour on British soil, and because of the panic it spread, The Bank of England issued Paper Money for the first time. Like I said, you couldn't write this comedy Ray​

Sry to corect you: Not Ireland(Pembrokeshire but Wales/Haverfordwest. Not an old General, but a midage Colonel!​

Here the true story...:​

The "Battle" of Fishguard - The Last Invasion of Great Britain!​

On February 22, 1797 finds - based on a proposal by the revolutionary general Lazare Hoche ...​

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... near the canton of Fishguard ...​

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... during the First Coalition War, the last invasion in Britain to date!​

1,400 French soldiers arriving on four warships land!​

The troupe is called "Légion noire" (the "black legion") ...​

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... is under the command of the Irish-American colonel William Tate ...​

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... and is at the very most second-rate - including about 600 French soldiers and 800 irregulars, including Republicans, deserters, convicts and formerly royal prisoners.​

General Napoleon Bonaparte had considered the soldiers unwilling to take part in his Italian campaign as worthy.​

The troop does not fight or conquer anything, but immediately begins to plunder extensively!​

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Hastily assembled British troops and local civilians are used by the British against the invaders!​

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Even women participate - with resounding success!​

The traditional red clothing of the Fishguard women ...​

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... is so similar to the British Army military uniforms at a distance that it looks to the French at a distance as if a large army is approaching.​

Then the "Légion noire" surrenders - many of the soldiers are already incapacitated by plentiful alcohol consumption during plundering ...:​

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The "Battle of Fishguard" is immortalized on a tapestry in the style of the "Bayeux Tapestry", which is exhibited today in Fishguard and from which several photos in this article come ...​

What I mean by that:​

The painting of historical figures is always also "painted history"!​

They can paint a figure in any color, if you can prove it with a contemporary model.​

In addition to only painting itself is an exact research - and that's exactly what I love so much about the hobby ...!​

Cheers

 

[Ray Stout]

The Ireland expedition was 2 years BEFORE Fishguard and had a certain Gen. Grouchy in charge. Col. Tate C.O. at Fishguard was 71yrs. old at the time!! Not exactly Mid age. Ray

 

[Gary_81]

I love historical and non historical figures alike, but after doing 28mm Napoleonic commissions for so many years now when I see Napoleon I just want to mount him on a giant dragon as painting him normally for the hundredth time would just drive me mad .

Gary

 

[Ray Stout]

That's why I stopped doing Chess Sets!! After the first one, it becomes purgatory. Ray