Euro 2012 The truth
- Thread starter Don
- Start date
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Don....hopefully this makes sense
I've been moaning about Golden Demon awards for years, and amongst the "fantasy" painting community, I'd always said how great EM was and World Expos because of the multiple awards system - that is, the work is recognised to a standard, not simple 1st, 2nd 3rd etc....
Salute is a pretty big wargaming show organised by a London wargaming club and it has a growing model competition attached. The Best of Show winner at Salute gets free tickets, including flights, to go to Chicago to Crystal Brush A new painting competiton where the winner takes home cash of $10000!!!!
Now the model that won best of show at Salute was entered into Euro this year, but came away with nothing, not even a commended. Whatever your views are about the piece, it did deserve something. And there's me telling people that EM judging recognises modelling - and thus getting new people through the door. And it was a howler of a decision just like some of the other questionable awards, or lack of them.
my main point being how critical the judging is if we're to continue bringing new people through the door.....and keeping those who already come to return....
not sure if it's any clearer!!!:thumb down:
I've been moaning about Golden Demon awards for years, and amongst the "fantasy" painting community, I'd always said how great EM was and World Expos because of the multiple awards system - that is, the work is recognised to a standard, not simple 1st, 2nd 3rd etc....
Salute is a pretty big wargaming show organised by a London wargaming club and it has a growing model competition attached. The Best of Show winner at Salute gets free tickets, including flights, to go to Chicago to Crystal Brush A new painting competiton where the winner takes home cash of $10000!!!!
Now the model that won best of show at Salute was entered into Euro this year, but came away with nothing, not even a commended. Whatever your views are about the piece, it did deserve something. And there's me telling people that EM judging recognises modelling - and thus getting new people through the door. And it was a howler of a decision just like some of the other questionable awards, or lack of them.
my main point being how critical the judging is if we're to continue bringing new people through the door.....and keeping those who already come to return....
not sure if it's any clearer!!!:thumb down:
Thanks for your reply Rob, you have made it very clear. Another satisfied customer I would think.
Used to love Golden Demon when I went with my son, always told my friends about how good the painting was in the competitions. Was not as pricey then as you say it is now.
From the start of this thread I have said I didnt really have a problem with the awards although there were a few howlers. It was the ones that were overlooked that were the problem. Overlooked or marked very low, just like your chap from Salute, he must have been well satisfied to get Nothing. Will we see him again, I doubt it!
Don
Used to love Golden Demon when I went with my son, always told my friends about how good the painting was in the competitions. Was not as pricey then as you say it is now.
From the start of this thread I have said I didnt really have a problem with the awards although there were a few howlers. It was the ones that were overlooked that were the problem. Overlooked or marked very low, just like your chap from Salute, he must have been well satisfied to get Nothing. Will we see him again, I doubt it!
Don
DEL
A Fixture
Going back to Don's original post, he was expressing his personal opinion on figures that had been 'missed' by the judges and to quote from that first post "my problem is with the number of high quality figures that were "overlooked".
Don was articulating comments from a number of conversations that took place on Sunday evening. As usual much of these centred around judging, no change there, what was different was the amount of comments on the high number of very deserving figures that were not recognised.
As this thread has developed a number of very good proposals have come forward, I particularly like Carl's suggestion of a manufacturers award voted for by the sweaty masses for figures not released prior to Euro. This would IMO re-establish a very exciting element that I for one now miss.
Also there are now extreme interpretations of comments that are less than constructive for example suggesting anyone was implying that people should not talk or indeed travel with each other. I've had a good look through all the posts and can't find anything to this effect.
Again as the thread has developed there are clearly some people identifying themselves within comments and observations made, that again is inevitable in situations such as this as are poor metaphors (it was) that Carl admitted to, (although it did help establish his broader point) and crude interpretations as above which I'm sure was meant to illustrate a point.
All told I'm really looking forward to what I'm sure will be a very enjoyable and friendly weekend.
Cheers
Derek
Don was articulating comments from a number of conversations that took place on Sunday evening. As usual much of these centred around judging, no change there, what was different was the amount of comments on the high number of very deserving figures that were not recognised.
As this thread has developed a number of very good proposals have come forward, I particularly like Carl's suggestion of a manufacturers award voted for by the sweaty masses for figures not released prior to Euro. This would IMO re-establish a very exciting element that I for one now miss.
Also there are now extreme interpretations of comments that are less than constructive for example suggesting anyone was implying that people should not talk or indeed travel with each other. I've had a good look through all the posts and can't find anything to this effect.
Again as the thread has developed there are clearly some people identifying themselves within comments and observations made, that again is inevitable in situations such as this as are poor metaphors (it was) that Carl admitted to, (although it did help establish his broader point) and crude interpretations as above which I'm sure was meant to illustrate a point.
All told I'm really looking forward to what I'm sure will be a very enjoyable and friendly weekend.
Cheers
Derek
Hi Guys ,
No more from me on this subject as I am sure we all agree that you will never stop the points being raised not just about Euro but indeed any show , this thread has raised many valid thoughts , idea's and comments (some out of order IMO) .......
.....but despite all of these are things likely to change in the near future ..I doubt it very much
I agree with Carl that there is a need to "rebuild a once great show back to it's former glory"
........has anyone actually contacted the organising team, I am sure Geoff wold be only too willing to listen .
...so until then .............
Lets just enjoy our hobby and the people we meet and have made friends with and marvel at the talent that is at the comp tables and that which we see on club stands
Nap
No more from me on this subject as I am sure we all agree that you will never stop the points being raised not just about Euro but indeed any show , this thread has raised many valid thoughts , idea's and comments (some out of order IMO) .......
.....but despite all of these are things likely to change in the near future ..I doubt it very much
I agree with Carl that there is a need to "rebuild a once great show back to it's former glory"
........has anyone actually contacted the organising team, I am sure Geoff wold be only too willing to listen .
...so until then .............
Lets just enjoy our hobby and the people we meet and have made friends with and marvel at the talent that is at the comp tables and that which we see on club stands
Nap
gordy
A Fixture
Taboo and rarely talked about is the rise of collectors.
Gold winning pieces secure a sale to a collector. Some collectors won't even reach for their check-book if a piece doesn't place.
That ups the stakes at the competition floor and splits the attendees into professional and amateur ranks.
With collector money on the line, judging becomes even more susceptible to corruption and lobbying.
While having multi-[gold, silver, bronze] helps normalise that (albeit finite), it would be a service to categorically separate purists from profitists.
Gold winning pieces secure a sale to a collector. Some collectors won't even reach for their check-book if a piece doesn't place.
That ups the stakes at the competition floor and splits the attendees into professional and amateur ranks.
With collector money on the line, judging becomes even more susceptible to corruption and lobbying.
While having multi-[gold, silver, bronze] helps normalise that (albeit finite), it would be a service to categorically separate purists from profitists.
Ron Tamburrini
A Fixture
War Griffon
Well-Known Member
Well I missed this thread when it was started and so have just finished reading it all, it's taken a while...
EM for me has always been the social side, the traders and the models on display in the competition hall,.
Last year was the first year I bucked up enough courage to enter something and even though I didn't place and the reasons why was discovered a month later after criticism from somebody that judged that class, it didn't stop me going this year.
I saw a lot more behind the scenes stuff this year as I was involved with trading and one thing struck me more than a few others and that was the number of people through the doors seemed to be down, when you trade you get a rare glimpse of the hall during a quiet moment that you may not get as a member of the public visiting the show and it really surprised me to see empty walkways amongst the trade stands with very few buyers in the main hall. Previous visits to EM has always been shoulder to shoulder to get past people but this year the main hall seemed deserted at times.
I also heard that a few traders pulled out at the last minute!!
What can be the problem, is it the fact that other than Salute which is expensive for a one day show as a trader, EM is the most expensive show for a trader to attend even though it is spread over 2 days?
Telford has been mentioned a few times and although the venue is huge and all on the same level it doesn't offer the same atmosphere on the social side because all the hotels are spread out, it is still a good show I think though and is getting better for the figure modellers.
I have seen the lack of public at other shows this year across the country and I think EM has suffered the same partly because of the climate we are in and there being less money to spend on luxuries such as modelling and also because of an expensive location for the World Expo this year as well people are choosing very carefully the number and location of the shows that they are attending and how much they are willing to spend of their hard earned cash.
I am not going to comment on the judging, I don't feel I should as I didn't enter anything this year (no new work finished that I felt was worthy). RobH has a very good point with the mention of Golden Demon though as I had persuaded several people not to go to that even this year and instead come down to EM, thankfully they had a good weekend and will be back to EM for 2012 as will I.
As I mentioned at the start when you trade you get to see a lot more behind the scenes such as the involvement of others in the setting up etc. One thing that has really struck me as being unwarranted is the attack on TB!! Many of these guys give up their free time to help set up the hall during the Friday morning prior to traders turning up, they are not asked for their help and they get no reward, for a few it also means their wife/girlfriend and family are left to wander the town centre whilst they are doing so but these people help of their own free will and many of them are their until late in the evening and early the next day making sure that traders are sorted out and help carry stock/unload vehicles.
Just because they are a member of a particular forum does this make them bad people and tyrants such as Tescos or other large chains? I saw plenty of people walking around with PF badges on the weekend and met many of them for the first time and they are no different to the rest of us, we all love this hobby so why the slating of a particular forum has to come into this because its members from many other UK Clubs happen to help at certain events is beyond me.
Oh and just to finish off, if I post a photo of a figure or ask somebody for their opinion then that is what I expect good or bad, if everything is rosy then surely that is not a good thing as I will carry on making the same mistakes and never improve?
95% of fact is somebodies opinion...we live with it don't we?
EM for me has always been the social side, the traders and the models on display in the competition hall,.
Last year was the first year I bucked up enough courage to enter something and even though I didn't place and the reasons why was discovered a month later after criticism from somebody that judged that class, it didn't stop me going this year.
I saw a lot more behind the scenes stuff this year as I was involved with trading and one thing struck me more than a few others and that was the number of people through the doors seemed to be down, when you trade you get a rare glimpse of the hall during a quiet moment that you may not get as a member of the public visiting the show and it really surprised me to see empty walkways amongst the trade stands with very few buyers in the main hall. Previous visits to EM has always been shoulder to shoulder to get past people but this year the main hall seemed deserted at times.
I also heard that a few traders pulled out at the last minute!!
What can be the problem, is it the fact that other than Salute which is expensive for a one day show as a trader, EM is the most expensive show for a trader to attend even though it is spread over 2 days?
Telford has been mentioned a few times and although the venue is huge and all on the same level it doesn't offer the same atmosphere on the social side because all the hotels are spread out, it is still a good show I think though and is getting better for the figure modellers.
I have seen the lack of public at other shows this year across the country and I think EM has suffered the same partly because of the climate we are in and there being less money to spend on luxuries such as modelling and also because of an expensive location for the World Expo this year as well people are choosing very carefully the number and location of the shows that they are attending and how much they are willing to spend of their hard earned cash.
I am not going to comment on the judging, I don't feel I should as I didn't enter anything this year (no new work finished that I felt was worthy). RobH has a very good point with the mention of Golden Demon though as I had persuaded several people not to go to that even this year and instead come down to EM, thankfully they had a good weekend and will be back to EM for 2012 as will I.
As I mentioned at the start when you trade you get to see a lot more behind the scenes such as the involvement of others in the setting up etc. One thing that has really struck me as being unwarranted is the attack on TB!! Many of these guys give up their free time to help set up the hall during the Friday morning prior to traders turning up, they are not asked for their help and they get no reward, for a few it also means their wife/girlfriend and family are left to wander the town centre whilst they are doing so but these people help of their own free will and many of them are their until late in the evening and early the next day making sure that traders are sorted out and help carry stock/unload vehicles.
Just because they are a member of a particular forum does this make them bad people and tyrants such as Tescos or other large chains? I saw plenty of people walking around with PF badges on the weekend and met many of them for the first time and they are no different to the rest of us, we all love this hobby so why the slating of a particular forum has to come into this because its members from many other UK Clubs happen to help at certain events is beyond me.
Oh and just to finish off, if I post a photo of a figure or ask somebody for their opinion then that is what I expect good or bad, if everything is rosy then surely that is not a good thing as I will carry on making the same mistakes and never improve?
95% of fact is somebodies opinion...we live with it don't we?
Panzer
A Fixture
Home cooking at it's best! hell it happens everywhere!
John Long
A Fixture
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2003
- Messages
- 1,500
I have to disagree with this. At least based on my experience. Most pieces collectors buy are bought and paid for before the awards are given out. They don't usually know which piece in a display was picked for judging, let alone what score it was given. Collectors know what they like and judge the quality for themselves. Generally speaking they like to buy from modellers that have a track record of consistant gold/silver quality work. That's about the only way I see medals influencing a collectors way of thinking.
gordy
A Fixture
Right.
I should have qualified my statement, It sounded generalising, yet too specific would have exposed sources from EM.
Ron Tamburrini
A Fixture
stu
A Fixture
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,577
And I thought this was dead !!!!
General figure talk never hits nearly 500 people looking at it, so there is either a lot of people avidly looking for a bun fight or are truley interested in Euro.
For how long will this detective story last ????? the clues , the mystery it slowly unfolds.
For me I wait for september. Euro is 3 things for me
1 A damned good time.
2 A trade event which is linked to 1.
3 A competition.
I hope the competition improves or it will spoil it.
Stu
General figure talk never hits nearly 500 people looking at it, so there is either a lot of people avidly looking for a bun fight or are truley interested in Euro.
For how long will this detective story last ????? the clues , the mystery it slowly unfolds.
For me I wait for september. Euro is 3 things for me
1 A damned good time.
2 A trade event which is linked to 1.
3 A competition.
I hope the competition improves or it will spoil it.
Stu
I have to agree with a few of the last posters on here, My sentiments are very much along the lines of Stuarts in what I would like to see.
I do however wonder if all the people who view this thread actually have an opinion. So lets find out shall we?
A few questions for our dear readers.
If Euro continues along the same lines
!/ Will people still attend or will it need to be improved?
2/ Do we need a change to the competition ruling?
3/ Do we need to have judges of at least Gold/ persistant Silver, or just pick anyone off the street?
Answers on a postcard please to................
Don
I do however wonder if all the people who view this thread actually have an opinion. So lets find out shall we?
A few questions for our dear readers.
If Euro continues along the same lines
!/ Will people still attend or will it need to be improved?
2/ Do we need a change to the competition ruling?
3/ Do we need to have judges of at least Gold/ persistant Silver, or just pick anyone off the street?
Answers on a postcard please to................
Don
1/ No
2/ Something needs doing, but what.
3/ With out stirring the pot again, does having a gold guarantee integrity?
Carl.
2/ Something needs doing, but what.
3/ With out stirring the pot again, does having a gold guarantee integrity?
Carl.
Ron Tamburrini
A Fixture
I May be wrong but I don't know of any other serious competition where one is a judge and also allowed to compete, albeit in a different category.
If you wish to judge perhaps you should lay down the gloves.
Can you hunt with the hounds and run with the Hare.
Ron
If you wish to judge perhaps you should lay down the gloves.
Can you hunt with the hounds and run with the Hare.
Ron
Not to sure about that one Ronnie. Dont think a chap should be stopped competing because he is also a judge.
I however, would not have any names anywhere near the figures. Numbers which can be called upon after judging. Perhaps something for the amazingly silent senior judges to debate on????????????
Don
I however, would not have any names anywhere near the figures. Numbers which can be called upon after judging. Perhaps something for the amazingly silent senior judges to debate on????????????
Don
Ron Tamburrini
A Fixture
It is just another suggestion Don to putting things back on the rails, it could be construed as a conflict of interests or even worse dare I say, insider dealing !to have a foot on both sides of the fence
These are not my views but just someone from the outside looking in.
Re the silent senior judges well! that has been mentioned out with this forum,
and people in the boat not wishing to rock it,then again maybe it is just a language problem.
Ron
