Euro-What are the rules

[Gra30]

Hi all

Now that I have discovered this fantastic site I was hoping that with all the knowledge out there that I might get to the bottom of a question that has been bugging me for many years.

Every year I look at the show guidelines for Euro Militaire and over the years I think they have changed very little.

Now I am a figure modeller and my other interest is also Sci Fi collecting/ Horror.I like to do both and I treat them seperate but in modelling, skills often overlap. I dont compete with my Sci FI/ horror models as I was under the impression that Euro does not cater for this.

Now I quote the rules for class 19 and 20

'Girlie',glamour,horror,fantasy and Military subjects are not eligible and will be disqualified if entered'

Now my question-if these are the rules why do I see fantasy and horror figures-by some amazing top modellers being entered AND winning awards.

As examples, and there have been many over the years ( I did not go to 05 so I cannont comment on this year)

in 2002 Adrian Bay won a silver with Yoda and entered Spider Man

I saw Golem a year or so ago

Dracula was entered and won an award and if you check through past Euro Medal winners you will see many many more.

I am not taking away anything from these fantastic models but WHAT exactly are the rules.

Does this mean I can enter Darth Vader or any other of my fantasy models and what guidelines can we break in other classes.

I hope this is answered

Many thanks

Graham

 

[Jim Patrick]

Graham, I honestly have no clue as I'm on the other side of the pond and have never attended Euro. However, I'm sure our friends who have way more knowledge about this will be able to help you.

Jim Patrick

 

[A.Hopwood]

The rules are basically as you note, but might I mention that the word "fantasy" disappeared from the rules this year ( 2005 as posted in Mil. Mod. earlier in the year ).
The long held rule was to allow models from film and literature. Thus, theoretically, you could have a scantily clad "Bond Girl" but only in context, i.e. you'd have to have either a well known Bond character or James Bond himself in model form.
As more fantasy and horror has crept into the mainstream film and literature genre, so more models depicting such characters will be allowed in.
However, there also was a rule that 120mm was the maximim acceptable size in the "civilian" classes, and that because the show is a "public view" platform of our hobby, good taste and a sense of decency should still be adhered to.
You might think that this is a bit vague, but if you analise things thoroughly, then there is usually a reason that some models are allowed, and others not.
Batman and Spiderman are recognised "Comic" orientated characters; Gollum and also Aragorn hail from literature - Tolkien's work having been on the English Literature reading choices in schools in the U.K. for the last 20 years. Although now that the film has been made, there is a likeness to depict that all can recognise.
On the other hand an out and out girlie model, or a copious amount of gore will find the exibitor politely being requested to withdraw the model.
Usually, if you're not sure, then asking one of the Judges, Stewards, or the head Judge - Geoffrey Illsley, will clear things up.
I'd say that the rules are being relaxed slightly, as Games Workshop fantasy figures were in there this year, and I believe it to be an advance that such models are being allowed in.
I don't know if it would ever happen, but someday I'd like to see a dedicated fantasy class added to the ones at Euro. I think that there are more than enough recognised "military modellers" who already do fantasy stuff on the side, and it might attract interest from fantasy modellers.
There always seems to be complaints about "there's no young modellers". Games Workshop seem to have found a couple of million from the profits that they announce each year. Need I say more ?

 

[Gra30]

Thankyou Adrian for your comments.

I understand the literature comments but surely 'Yoda' is nothing but Sci-fi and this was awarded silver in 2002.

I love this model as I am a SW collector but no matter how I try it still seems to be going against the rules. If this is allowed then would a stormtrooper or Darth Vader.

This I emphasise was prior to the rules ommiting fantasy changing.

There are others aswell. Dracula is literature but is aslo Horror and this again goes against the rules.

Also the fact that figures from literature are allowed and that this includes comic characters and certain sci fi and fantasy characters as they have appeared in books seems to have been kept a good secret. I cannot find this description anywhere in the rules and as I said this contradicts what is quoted.

A clear statement that these are acceptable would make it much clearer. Basically you are saying anything from a book-ie appeared in literature as a character IS allowed.

Thankyou

Graham

 

[A.Hopwood]

As I mentioned, things begin to blur because of the increase of fantasy and sci-fi films being either blockbuster movies - with the help of lots of CGI effects, or in the case of Harry Potter / Lord of the Rings, the books becoming popular reading choices, and then being made into films.
Yoda, might I remind you, has a fairly prominent part in a series of films, so he's acceptable. Dracula too, so long as the gore is kept to a minimum.
The choice of scene you depict matters - let's face it, the Coppola film of Dracula is fairly gory in places, but there's lots of scenes that have no blood on show - so enter a model depicting one of those scenes ( United Empire Miniatures does a couple of busts from the Coppola film - the "Old Man" is particularly well rendered ). The older Dracula films usually have even less gore - so the Andrea Dracula model fits in here too.
I must stress though, and I didn't notice it on this year's rules ( Hey c'mon, I judged a different class ), be aware of ALL the rules - sometimes you may read all the paragraph about the class, but forget about the size specification at the top of the class title. Some classes even have a maximum size on the dimensions for the base too.
The real problem of course, is when you spend hours and hours making, painting and basing a model, and then have the tap on the shoulder and the polite request to remove your entry.
Careful thinking about the selected model and it's displayed setting should rule this out of course - well I hope so.
Don't however think that just because a model won last year, that you're O.K. to enter it at the next show. I was asked to remove the Andrea Harpy figure, even though she's got the naughty bits covered, and even though the Andrea studio got a medal ( Silver or Bronze I think ) the year previous. The real measure of the modeller is to be able to abide by the judges decision without "losing it".
The rules have changed, just by small amounts - a word added or ommitted here and there - but they have changed. The art is getting something you want to paint that fits criteria, and let's not forget impressing the judges enough to get a prize.
It's not easy, but then again it isn't meant to be.
Look at it this way; if you're going to travel a vast distance ( which most of us do ) to go to Euro. Isn't it worth taking whatever model you want, and just asking if it can be entered. After all if you left it in the cabinet at home, it definitely isn't going to get you a gold !
Happy modelling.
Adrian.

 

[A.Hopwood]

I guess I should really answer your question. But, and I do stress BUT, this is only my opinion, not necessarily that of the Head judge, nor of Euro Militaire's organisers.
Theoretically, Darth Vader or a recognisable Stromtrooper from any of the StarWars films ( hey they do like to change that armour ) should be acceptable.
Yoda was in the second film, some time in the 1980's, and has become and accepted "character" from film. It might well be a sci-fi film, but it's still a film.
The rules are there as a guideline to enable folk to work to a framework. Comics are printed material, hence it falls under literature, and yes, I dare say that loads of authors have just begun spinning in their graves.
If you think that you have a model that fits within the rules, then enter it.
Be ready to defend it's presence with the rules as laid down - it's the right size, it comes from this piece of film / book / play comic / even art ( Gurnica won a couple of years back ). And it's best - if you're pushing the boundaries of what's allowed - to make it something that is easily recognisable. Darth Vader is a character even my Mum would know. The third alien from the left, next to Han Solo when he's in carbonite on the wall of Jaba's place probably isn't.
One of the above is a more obvious choice than the other......
Have a sensible and solid reason, but still be willing to be over-ruled.
The highest appeal you can make is asking a decision from the Head Judge, but remember, he's decided who the judges are, he's confident that they know what they're on about - if you don't like what they've said, then be very sure that you can convince him they're wrong.
Not many models get removed for being unsuitable - honest. There might be one a year, if that, and as often as not it's not a model in the "civilian" classes.
Basically, the rules can't cover individual models or characters. Several former entries have pushed the "allowable and acceptable" further and further. Good for them, I like Adrian Bay's Games Workshop models, it's just a case of finding the right model and the right reason that it's acceptable.
Hope that this helps.
Adrian

 

[Gra30]

Hi Adrian

Black and white-the reason I asked the question is the year Raul Lattore got Gold and Best of show with his highlander figure I was fortunate to get bronze in the same class and Mike B also got several awards.

I have not entered since, mainly because although my skills have improved, I do it for fun now and I know when to stop.
I am not a pot hunter and forgive me but I dont think your were a judge then.

I accept fully your comments but I feel with posh words you are covering the fact that models are being allowed in classes when the rules say different.

If what you say is correct YOU as a member of the judging team should make it your responsibility to make it aware to all entrants.

I can eat my words as I hold a Euro medal but my point is TOO many contreversal and playing on words is done.

All you have told me is a reason why and I still stand by the Euro rules quote as above.

I am sorry but this is proving to me how clicky and 'it suits when is fit' the judging in the uk can be.'

I personally think that in order to be a judge a min of an award sholud be recognised each year and this should change frequently.

Well there goes my awards for the next few years.

No offence and kindest regards

Graham

 

[Robin]

Judging must be the one thing at Euro that causes the most stir, I have entered not in recent years as my stuff aint quite that standard as yet.

The basicpremise here is that you cannot please all teh people al the time, there is as Adrian has said a call for a Sci-Fi Class, infact I have discussed it with more than a few modellers, adrian included. We should perhaps lobby the organisers to get one, upto that point the Rules are the rules.

I think the interpretation above by Adrian covers it if they need changing(which they might do) we should write and ask, not try to manipualte what we have got to be something they aint

I certainly would like to see some Sci Fi Stuff there


Robin

 

[A.Hopwood]

Graham, I'm sorry that you think I'm hiding behind "posh words", I didn't think I was.
I maintain that the word "fantasy" was removed from the rules issued in an international magazine ( Military Modelling ) when advertising the show for 2005.
The word "fantasy" had indeed been included as a type of models to be kept from entry in previous years.
As a judge, it is my remit to look at the models, and give awards as I see fit. Period.
Reporting to the general modelling populace on whether individual models are acceptable would prove to be a long list, and take much of my time. It'd probably bore the pants of folk too.
As I mentioned, I'd like to see a fantasy / sci fi class at Euro. But then again, I enter models there in the competition too, so I have a vested interest in what classes of model are allowed for. But I have no power to "make" the organisers have such a class.
Rules at Euro are kept as open as possible, as far as I can see, to allow a simplicity to flow from them. This isn't meant to confuse folk, and a lot of foreign speaking entrants do manage to get the gist of things.
This doesn't mean that there's not confusion, and is why I say to ask.
Judges don't want to see disqualifications. They know what work goes into a model and can appreciate the negativity of having to tell someone to remove a piece.
Judges will regularly move models whilst judging if they're put in the wrong class ( Gladiators in class 1 - military. is a favourite. They're civilians and should be in one of the civilian classes ).
And yes, in the seven years that I've been judging there, I have been unfortunate enough to have to bar an entry - a particularly lovely "flat painting" which was not a casting, but a beautifully painted portrait on a flat piece of metal. It broke my heart, because it really should have been up for Gold, but, and as you note, if it breaks the rules, which this piece did, then it should be barred from the competition.
I can only offer advice to an extent, and point you in the direction of someone who is better informed, or in a position to make a better judgement.
This is something I have attempted to do.
Whilst I might seem to use "clever wording" to get this across, I mean to do so with the best of intentions.
The judges I have the honour of knowing from Euro are probably there with much the same ideals as I am. That is to spend several hours poring carefully over models and making decisions about awards. Doing as good a job on the day as is humanly possible is top of the list. Disqualification is a last resort, and not one to be taken lightly.
I reiterate, if it's got a good reason to be there, on the bench, then so be it.
Adrian

 

[Gra30]

Hi Adrian
I appreciate fully your comments and I do know you are a very honest modeller/judge/loyal member to this world of the miniature. I do not mean that patronising and I apologise for airing my views to you personally, but I am very passionate about this and as a judge you are the closest I can get. I also appreciate the change to 2005 but this still does not help me understand why awards were given prior to this on subjects that the rules clearly stated would be disqualified. Its as if "its changed now so its ok". And correct me but you were a judge prior to 2005.

I was a member of faversham in my teens when Mr T Greenland and G Illsley were very new( to the international scene) of modelling.

My father and I were some of the first members of this club and at the time Trevor Morgan was a very very fine modeller. We would meet at John Reagans House once a month and Euro was but a distant dream-and still outside us mortals. But all were always down to earth and advised to the best.

The first Euro came aronud and I entered as a child, I always swore I would return some day and I like to think I can certainly hold my own as a figure painter. I also swore that once I did achieve anything I would defend any corruption and playing of words and equally people who, and this is my opinion, people who are there not for their skills but because it fits well to have them on the scene or as judges.

Eventually I, as I said got my bronze, and against I think, good odds.

YOU I MAY ADD ARE NOT ONE OF THESE and the fact you have replied these times to me shows this. All I ask is that guide lines are made clear and it is now I think that the friendly side of modelling is finally showing. This is a very very far cry from the way some of your chief judges used to act but looking at the works of the new era and attitude I think they have a lot to learn.

Please email me. I would like to carry this on privately as a friend.

My kindest regards and thankyou Adrian-Please email me

Graham Scollick