Figures holding colours or flags...

[valiant]

Hi Guys,

Firstly, this is not intended as a direct criticism of any specific manufacturer, past or present, it is an observational thought which has crossed my mind on a few occasions.

I often wonder how possible it is to hold a 6'x 6' infantry colour or flag in one hand, as depicted on some figures? If the flagpole is grounded, then I could imagine it is possible to steady the flag, but, realistically, how possible is it to actually hold one aloft? I genuinely would like to know, as I have never held one, but could imagine it being very unwieldy!! I understand that this is done for visual effect and for artistic licence in period paintings and sculpts, but is it actually possible..?

TIA

Steve

 

[ivopreda]

look at that pictures... when you speak about a flag and how to hold you have to select the type of the flag and if the man is holding it static or in a dynamic moment

 

[valiant]

That is my point, Ivopreda - a 2m x 2m flag or colour is a huge thing, heavily embroidered with gold and silver bullion thread with a heavy wooden pole. Even in the heat of battle, would it be possible to hold aloft in one hand...? I genuinely dont know, so Ive asked the question....

 

[Alex]

Big flags are simply just beautiful in miniatures..

 

[ivopreda]

That is my point, Ivopreda - a 2m x 2m flag or colour is a huge thing, heavily embroidered with gold and silver bullion thread with a heavy wooden pole. Even in the heat of battle, would it be possible to hold aloft in one hand...? I genuinely dont know, so Ive asked the question....

look at the picture... all the flags are flying without any wind... are flag made in sylk, no embroidery... all the pattern are painted that means that are quite light.

consider also that often the flag bearer was the youngest officer specially in the british army and the young officer was frequently a teenager

 

[valiant]

With respect Ivopreda, those photos are of modern re enactors and are modern reproductions of the real thing. The pic of the flag attached is a contemporary one from a regimental museum and if you look closely, it is heavily embroidered. There are also original items in my local regimental museum, in Lichfield and these are certainly not painted and were carried into battle.

 

[kevininpdx]

I was thinking the same thing. Such a figure was just released and I couldn’t believe the size of the flag held in a single hand. Nice figure though.

 

[Tecumsea]

My immediate reaction too because in the illustration the flag is grounded. However it is a nicely sculpted piece and a dynamic pose so l think some artistic licence is acceptable as it captures the moment..

In the context of our hobby.and an absence of action photographs for anything pre 20th century then artistic licence runs throughout our hobby., Very few artistic interpretations are based on life.?

Keith

 

[valiant]

I agree, Keith and Kevin. Not wanting to pour cold water on new products, I was musing over a cup of coffee as to whether it would actually be possible, given the fact that I struggle to hang out a duvet cover on the washing line when it is windy.. but then that doesnt have a flagpole on it!!!

 

[DaddyO]

Hi Valiant - I've often wondered the same and thinks it's an interesting point to raise
As Ivo says some were silk which presumably wouldn't be too much of a problem.

The heavy regimental standards with embroidered battle honours look like a different kettle of fish. I understand that they would often be partially rolled up to reduce the weight away from the pole (rolling part of the flag up so perhaps only the end 1/3 or 1/2 was free to whip in the breeze) This would certainly make them easier to handle as would using a 'boot' or socket on a belt to take some of the weight. (Having carried a few smaller ones in parades I wouldn't fancy trying to hold any one handed, but then I'm just a modern wimp)

Cheers
Paul

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys

A very good question from Steve and good replies

IMO I do think the 6x6 colours would have been difficult to control in bad weather yet alone in battle conditions

Ensigns were generally young , sometimes scared in a battle trying to carry a colour

Particularly in paintings visual dramatic effect is seen

Just my thoughts

Nap

PS would like to see Steve duvet hanging ...lol

 

[Nap]

Hi guys

Out of interest this is from the Osprey Elite book on Colours

Nap

 

[valiant]

Thanks for pitching in Paul and Kev. Pretty much backs up my thoughts regarding real life and artistic licence..

 

[Chrisr]

Having had to carry a modern colour on parade I can only agree with Valiant. Even with the smaller, heavily embroidered colours of today, carrying them one handed, although not impossible, is damn hard, especially in the poses we see some manufacturers depicting.

Regards
Chris

 

[tock24]

I've carried a [reproduction] British Colour [War of 1812] and we always used a shoulder belt for support and often 2 hands on the staff. Real pain when marching and unwieldy is an understatement! Rest stops were always welcome so we could ground the staff!
BR
Ian

 

[Oda]

A very interesting topic indeed.My two cents worth of opinion would be that there were historically more than one kind of flags,standards,colours etc.There were probably some quite light ones made of fine silk and sometimes carried on half poles (as depicted on many contemporary woodcuts depicting 16th cent landsknechts) and others quite heavily embroidered that would make the use of a shoulder support a necesassity.A good example comes from Japan.In the 16th cent the really big nobori or hata jirushi flags although made of light silk or hemp were carried into battle by an ashigaru using a shoulder support and both of his hands while two or three other ashigaru were holding lines attached to the pole on diametrically opposite positions in order to make the unwieldly thing jiggle a little less.

Oda.

 

[Tecumsea]

In all of the reenactment photos the standards are being held in two hands.

 

[Mirofsoft]

 

[valiant]

those particular flags are specifically designed to be held in one hand....

 

[ivopreda]

i think we are mixing the informations...

there were painted flags an embroidered flags... obviously they react to the wind differently...

in the Napoleonic army the 1804 model was painted but his substitute in 1812 was embroidered

I took the picture of the above flag 2 weeks ago in the Emperi museum and the flag is clearly painted on a single sylk tissue

the following is an embroidered flag on a double piece of sylk sewed later, obviously is heavier

in the ACW mostly of the battle honour and the central eagle were painted... for sure the reenactor today are absolutely precise replying the uniform and the flag...

only my 2 cents