German Militaria anyone??

[custer760]

Hello planeteers,
We have been selling figures etc of a deceased friend.
His widow showed me some other items which he had in his den and maybe someone wishes to buy these,Werner also built WW2 figures and tanks,this is a collection of German and Nazi German Militaria.She wishes it to be sold complete and the price is 700 euros.The items are both original and repro,I will list this next to the items.

.... List deleted .....

Well thats it....if anybody is interested (photos can be made) contact me at. [email protected]
Thanks
Pete

 

[Dan Morton]

Not for me, thanks, but if you have not already done it, suggest posting the list and additional info on Gentlemen's Military Interest Club in their Sales area. http://gmic.co.uk/

Good luck!

All the best,
Dan

 

[custer760]

Thanks Dan
Regards
Pete

 

[rafaelega]

Be carefull my Friends!

Do not buy any German militaría items without looking some good pics. There are a lot of fakes there!.
700 euro for all the collection is a ridiculous price . Only the nazi dager original must cost more than this amount of money.
I am WWII militaría collector; I have several dagers, bayonet, helmets and medals.

Obviously the widow and friend do not calculate the Price well or all the material are fakes. ...

Custer760 let me know if you need assistance for evaluate the correct Price for each ítem.

Best regards.!

 

[custer760]

Hello Rafael,
Please do not accuse anyone of offering fakes withoutout seeing photos yourself.....You can Mail me at [email protected] And I will send you pictures,if you still think that the price is ridiculous,then go ahead and buy them and make some money yourself.Here in Germany it is not allowed to sell these items in E Bay or through newspaper adverts.She wishes 700 euros....total...if you are a collector then please.The copies are marked as copies,even I know that.
Regards
Pete

 

[custer760]

Hello once again Rafael,
Looking at the original Nazi Army officers dagger,the handle is ochre colour,on the BLADE is F.W.Höller Berlin.There is no scabbard,this dagger was the official dagger of the father of Jutta who was an Officer here in Germany in WW2,Jutta is the widow of Werner who painted figures and tanks.She says that the dagger (and lost scabbard)Hung on the Wall in her sons room for Years,what happened to the scabbard???
The Iron cross 1st class was also earned by her father in WW2,the Parade bayonet was also her fathers,it is chromed and has the markings Eichhorn (squirrel in German)and also a squirrel mark,the scabbard is Black.The Iron cross 2nd class was also her fathers from his time in WW1,
The long bayonet without scabbard but with leather frog is 42 centimetres long,the BLADE is 30 centimetres,the BLADE is marked Waffenfabrik Neuhausen (Armamentsfactory Neuhausen) it has the serialnumber 444552 stamped on the crossguard.
As mentioned in my previous post.....Send for photos....pay the ridiculous low price....make a profit on the resale....And Jutta and yourself are very happy.
Regards
Pete

 

[rossbach]

Dear all,

I would assume that ultimately it is up to the moderators to adress the fundamental question if a forum that is primarily geared towards everything to do with scale figure modelling is the right place to sell World War II artefacts at all. Furthermore I can't help wondering if discussions about authenticity of artefacts like these, considering the potential risk of turning into a brawl, should be held here.

What I do find rather disturbing however is the proportionally large quantity of SS related items that (whether or not authentic) are offered for sale.

Can I with all respect point out, as a professional historian and as a person holding two passports (Dutch & German), that the SS ( the military component as well as the police/security component) has officially been declared a criminal organisation?

What will be up for sale next? Artefacts from Russian WWII battlefield excavations that de facto verge on the edge of grave robbery?

Paul

 

[custer760]

Sorry Paul but cannot agree with you,there are very many modellers on this forum who collect and paint all aspects of Military conflicts (this includes SS units) some also wish to decorate their man caves with artefacts (original or copies).
I recently saw a for sale advert here for a figure and sword (original from Sudan War) where is the difference??
Anyway buddy I dont think we should give this ad more attention and Promotion than it deserves,if you dont wish to buy and have no interest,then dont respond.
Regards
Pete

 

[mick3272]

Hello Rafael,
Please do not accuse anyone of offering fakes withoutout seeing photos yourself.....You can Mail me at [email protected] And I will send you pictures,if you still think that the price is ridiculous,then go ahead and buy them and make some money yourself.Here in Germany it is not allowed to sell these items in E Bay or through newspaper adverts.She wishes 700 euros....total...if you are a collector then please.The copies are marked as copies,even I know that.
Regards
Pete

So you. Knowing it illegal ? / forbidden to sell these items on e bay or via Newspaper advertisements in I assume your own country. Think it fine to advertise on this forum which is used by peoples from around the world who may find this material offencive.
This has to be ill judged if not outright wrong.

Mick

 

[Babelfish]

I've just spent over a hour seeking clarity on this, and it's a legal minefield. Because what is and isn't legal in terms of Nazi memorabilia varies between countries. Or even sometimes within a country (for example it may be legal to own it, but not to sell or display it in public).

All of this means that if lists advertising such items are displayed on pF, this site is potentially violating the law in some countries.

With that in mind, I've deleted the list above and what needs to happen now is this:

1) Pete, if you haven't already done so you need to clarify your legal position in Germany with respect to whether you are allowed to own and sell these items (even if only on behalf of a third party).

2) Anyone interested in buying Nazi memorabilia needs to check the laws in their own country that cover Nazi memorabilia, and if it is legal for you to buy, import and own them, contact Pete privately (i.e. off site) to ask him what he has to offer in terms of items that he is allowed to sell on and that you are allowed to buy off him. Any resulting correspondence and trade should then also be conducted privately and off site and without any involvement on the part of PlanetFigure. It is your responsibility (and only yours) to make sure that you are complying with the law.

pF cannot risk being a party to potentially illegal trading and thereby risk legal action (as happened to Yahoo in a similar case, so if it can happen to a "big hitter" like them, smallfry like us are not immune).

Thanks for your cooperation and understanding Gents.

- Steve

 

[Martin64]

Just for clarification:
Peter I know you and I like you. As a foreigner you might not know the German law too exact. It is forbidden to import, export or offer items that contain the insignia of organisations that are seen as hostile to the German constitution (so is the Nazi party) in Germany.
If somebody wants to get you in serious trouble he just needs to send you an email and request the list and pictures and negotiate about your price.....
For your and other German residents information (see red text):

§ 86a: Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen

(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer

1. im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder

2. Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.

(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.

(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.

Therefore Steve is right to take action. His points are absolutely valid IMHO.

Cheers, Martin

PS: In my personal view many flags were hoisted over the dead bodies of innocent victims and many medals of many nations are stained with their blood. Nevertheless this does not belittle or excuse any atrocity committed by the Nazi regime and regardless of personal views laws must be obeyed.

 

[custer760]

So you. Knowing it illegal ? / forbidden to sell these items on e bay or via Newspaper advertisements in I assume your own country. Think it fine to advertise on this forum which is used by peoples from around the world who may find this material offencive.
This has to be ill judged if not outright wrong.

Mick

Well said Mick (although Offensive is spelt with s not C) and I suppose you think that everyone is to be governed by the rules of a different country,you probably think that 3rd Reich figures should not be displayed here either............totally pathetic.......And byebye.

 

[rossbach]

@Martin64. Da hast Du völlig recht. Im Prinzip sind sowohl Ankauf, Verkauf und Besitz von NS Artefakten nach deutschen Recht illegal und deshalb potenziell strafbar.

@Steve. I contacted a few experts in the afternoon and the publication of the list is illegal not only according to German law. Needless to say so is the posession and sale of some of the items on it. Also you might want to consider if the forum has not already been compromised too much already or not.

Can I suggest that it probably would it be a good idea to take the whole thread down and archive it for possible future reference? Actually what happened today was a thoughtless and pretty stupid thing to do.

Paul

 

[Babelfish]

Paul, I don't see any reason to panic and throw the baby out with the bathwater. A few of the items on Pete's list were fine (World War One pilot's badge, possibly some of the medals), others probably not in some jurisdictions.

As I said, it is up to the individuals concerned - both the seller and any potential buyers - to clarify issues of the legality of the various memorabilia items, to do so off site and also to conduct any business privately and without pF acting as any sort of intermediary or platform.

I've brought this to the attention of Admin (i.e. Tommi and Pawel), and if they think that any additional action is required, I'm sure they'll take it.

- Steve

 

[Tommi]

Only just seen this.

This section of the forum is for selling and trading model military figures, busts, sculpting service's, paints, books of historical reference etc.

This is not really the right forum to be selling war memorabilia and antiques etc, the bayonet is a killing weapon so not to sure how we would stand on having that item in particular advertised on here.

No offence to anyone but it would be better if you advertised the items on one of the more specialised collectors sites.

Cheers
Tommi

 

[custer760]

@Martin64. Da hast Du völlig recht. Im Prinzip sind sowohl Ankauf, Verkauf und Besitz von NS Artefakten nach deutschen Recht illegal und deshalb potenziell strafbar.

@Steve. I contacted a few experts in the afternoon and the publication of the list is illegal not only according to German law. Needless to say so is the posession and sale of some of the items on it. Also you might want to consider if the forum has not already been compromised too much already or not.

Can I suggest that it probably would it be a good idea to take the whole thread down and archive it for possible future reference? Actually what happened today was a thoughtless and pretty stupid thing to do.

Paul

Total ********!!!!!! There are hundreds of collectors here in Germany and thanks to a couple of thoughtfull members of the forum,who contacted me privately instead of raving here in public,have given me a couple of links to Forums and online trading Portals here that deal in Militaria.It is,according to the information on the Internet ( and a friend who is policeman) only forbidden to wear or Display these items in public Paul.
There are a total (new to me) of 17 trade fairs here in Germany Dealers sell among otherthings Nazi Militaria.
Thread end.....Many thanks to the 3 members who contacted me privately...You are gents....others are neurotic.....It takes all sorts but,I suppose we are learning to live with it.

 

[Martin64]

Peter, you are right that possession is not illegal but public display of items containing these nazi-symbols (that`s why you did not post pictures I guess) is regarded as a legal offence. The same refers to their distribution (that includes sale) and that might be considered as neurotic but these are the limitations of today`s German law - obviously with the intention to limit the access to those items as much as possible with the strange - but maybe logical - effect that their value amongst collectors rises.
If it`s " total BS" and there is no legal problem with selling them guess why you can`t offer them on ebay or otherwise....ask your friend and tell him my best regards.
Because (unknown) legal consequences can affect anyone of our PF-members I thought it ok to mention it in public. No need to take it as a personal offence.
Cheers, Martin

 

[Gaudin]

Totally agree with mod's decision. In the end of the day this sale offer is outside of PF remit and purpose, regardless if there will be interested parties or not present on the site.

But hopefully issue is sorted now.

Just as a curiosity, there actually are modelling websites where it is forbidden to post any Nazi reference including figures. Even a vignette with a trophy flag or German casualty will be censored out, because admins stick to their rules. And, interestingly, law in that country doesn't forbid display of those.

 

[Martin64]

I guess that every forum can set it`s rules more strict than the relevant legal framework allows. Speaking of Germany there is only one lawful exception about public display of items containing symbols of the Nazi party: Historical documentation - like the display of uniforms and regalia in a museum for example.
My local Modelclub tried to get a permission for the public display of models in our annual show based on this exception from the authorities telling that our hobby is about historical documentation and research. This was denied because models are legally regarded as toys. So in advance of the opening of the show we have to check all displays that these symbols are covered by stickers etc - otherwise we will face serious financial consequences and the show will no longer be allowed to take place.
If you are running an internet forum and your servers are based in Germany you might have to think about this problem likewise. The German law about media will hold you responsible for violations commited by using your servers.
I in person am highly in doubt if these restrictions will save the world because the problem is about mindset and not symbols.
My final two cents about this topic.
Cheers, Martin

 

[Oda]

Martin's final comment sums it up nicely.Name-calling and correcting spelling mistakes of people whose native language may not be English is totally uncalled for and unjust on a forum known for being tolerant and civilised.

Oda.