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balder
PlanetFigure Supporter
Accuracy is good but I agree with Ralph. If I like the kit, if the sculpt is good, I buy it. I don't get too hung up on accuracy.
Gerald
Gerald
ChaosCossack
A Fixture
As long as the Grumbler in question isn't wearing sequined cowboy boots and hot pink spandex pants... a missing overcoat button or shoulder strap won't give me fits. I can fix it or not depending on how offended I am
Colin
M
Mark S
Guest
That's fine Brian, but you can't just make sweeping statements about boats without being more historically specific......I mean really which boats are you referring to....16th century or indeed 18thcentury
Or is it what actually floats the boats and the boats they float in you're referring to......such as a 18th century gravy boat or a 17th century custard boat ~
Come on mate, which is it?
billyturnip
A Fixture
T
TADATSUGU
Guest
I would like to make what I hope will be my last comment on this thread.
I would like to apologise to Ellie and Ian for stirring up this can of worms. I tried to keep your names out of this thread and I appreciated the response you and Maurice gave on my original thread, posted elsewhere. From the responses above, it seems that sales will hopefully not be affected. This thread was not meant to focus particularly on your new figure, it's just that it was the starting point for this post and illustrated my problem most clearly.
The purpose of my original posting was to point out the problems I had with the figure so that any purchasers would be armed with the information needed to make the kind of alterations that Chaos Cossack refers to. although in this case I still feel those alterations are too extensive for the reasons I have stated. I thought that my contribution would be accepted as such by other members, as I could not imagine anyone in the hobby, dealing with historical miniatures, (as opposed to fantasy subjects) , not welcoming such comment. The result of this thread has at least informed me that some people simply do not care too much about accuracy and that has surprised me greatly. When I started in this hobby what has been called button counting was what was accepted as the norm and I cannot see why anyone has an issue with it. To me, making a figure as accurate as possible is what it's all about. I accept that research material changes and we can never be 100% sure, but we can still make changes if we are well informed before starting a project.
ChaosCossack;- It was not the Ellie's Grenadier that I referred to as an action pose but another company producing a model of them advancing. Could artillery fire (possibly Prussian?) have caused the extent of damage as depicted? - with all due respect I would find it very unlikely, and that still wouldn't resolve the other issues I raised.
What hasn't been stated here is that on the original post Moz explained that he had not intended the Ellie's Model to depict Waterloo at all, but an earlier period, hence the earlier pattern flag. For those that do care, that option would seem to offer the most workable resolution.
I would like to apologise to Ellie and Ian for stirring up this can of worms. I tried to keep your names out of this thread and I appreciated the response you and Maurice gave on my original thread, posted elsewhere. From the responses above, it seems that sales will hopefully not be affected. This thread was not meant to focus particularly on your new figure, it's just that it was the starting point for this post and illustrated my problem most clearly.
The purpose of my original posting was to point out the problems I had with the figure so that any purchasers would be armed with the information needed to make the kind of alterations that Chaos Cossack refers to. although in this case I still feel those alterations are too extensive for the reasons I have stated. I thought that my contribution would be accepted as such by other members, as I could not imagine anyone in the hobby, dealing with historical miniatures, (as opposed to fantasy subjects) , not welcoming such comment. The result of this thread has at least informed me that some people simply do not care too much about accuracy and that has surprised me greatly. When I started in this hobby what has been called button counting was what was accepted as the norm and I cannot see why anyone has an issue with it. To me, making a figure as accurate as possible is what it's all about. I accept that research material changes and we can never be 100% sure, but we can still make changes if we are well informed before starting a project.
ChaosCossack;- It was not the Ellie's Grenadier that I referred to as an action pose but another company producing a model of them advancing. Could artillery fire (possibly Prussian?) have caused the extent of damage as depicted? - with all due respect I would find it very unlikely, and that still wouldn't resolve the other issues I raised.
What hasn't been stated here is that on the original post Moz explained that he had not intended the Ellie's Model to depict Waterloo at all, but an earlier period, hence the earlier pattern flag. For those that do care, that option would seem to offer the most workable resolution.
Hi David
Thank you for your response, as we have stated we are going to give a flag option on the second batch of castings. anyone who has ordered the first batch will receive the alternative flag if they with to have it ( No extra cost). but has said the flag will depict an earlier time and will be fine as is it's all up to you how you wish to portray the figure. happy modelling.
Ellie & Ian
Ellie's Miniatures
Thank you for your response, as we have stated we are going to give a flag option on the second batch of castings. anyone who has ordered the first batch will receive the alternative flag if they with to have it ( No extra cost). but has said the flag will depict an earlier time and will be fine as is it's all up to you how you wish to portray the figure. happy modelling.
Ellie & Ian
Ellie's Miniatures
Gaudin
A Fixture
In my humble opinion, all best effort should be made to make it accurate - but within reason and availiable resources.
You cant expect a phd level research behind a hobby piece. Another issue is that often experts cant agree on colour of ... chabraque.
It also depends who controls the project. If sculptor is given a free reign and left to do their own research - then you can expect everything and anything, commisioner doesnt know any better - and a beautifull figure will do the job nicely.
When manufacturer gives strict instructions and references - then, of course, responsibility is clearer.
These days I feel there is a rush to get figures out on the market, to make sure no one gets the the coveted idea out sooner. It would seem that no one has a chance to feedback on figures before there is already 100+ copies cast and ready to sell.
As a consequence - and ( to me) an issue that is more important than historical accuracy - you get figures with glaring anatomical issues and basic errors that really shouldnt be present in commercial products.
Having said that, the majority doesnt seem to mind or notice. May be Fantasy is a way forward.
You cant expect a phd level research behind a hobby piece. Another issue is that often experts cant agree on colour of ... chabraque.
It also depends who controls the project. If sculptor is given a free reign and left to do their own research - then you can expect everything and anything, commisioner doesnt know any better - and a beautifull figure will do the job nicely.
When manufacturer gives strict instructions and references - then, of course, responsibility is clearer.
These days I feel there is a rush to get figures out on the market, to make sure no one gets the the coveted idea out sooner. It would seem that no one has a chance to feedback on figures before there is already 100+ copies cast and ready to sell.
As a consequence - and ( to me) an issue that is more important than historical accuracy - you get figures with glaring anatomical issues and basic errors that really shouldnt be present in commercial products.
Having said that, the majority doesnt seem to mind or notice. May be Fantasy is a way forward.
Another thing is reading some of these posts they don't perhaps come from folks with a military background and so fall into the trap of thinking what's in a book is the only way a certain item/clothing is worn, and don't take the mind set of the soldier into account, squaddies by their very nature will adapt/butcher/modify call it what you will equipment to suit themselves. Take the figure Steve Readdie has produced showing a Signalman in the Falklands, none standard webbing, Argentinian boots and a very none Royal Signals beret (worn Para Regt style) you won't ever see that in any book but I know it's accurate cos it's me and this is in a modern age of dress regulations, mass produced equipment and well covered setting. Imagine what it was like before all that, so that's why I don't get hung up on minor inaccuracies if they "look" right then there's a very good chance they are, clearly if I'd been shown carrying a halberd instead of an SLR it might not be quite as accurate 
Steve
Steve
T
TADATSUGU
Guest
O.K my self imposed silence didn't last long but as I don't like sarcasm Ray. For those who apparently don't check their facts, ELLIE'S FIRST POST TITLED THE PIECE AS OLD GUARD AT BAY 1815! It was the earlier period flag that stated all this off, Jeez! it just seems that some folk just want to take a pop
David (History Buff)
David (History Buff)
theBaron
A Fixture
The retail price of a kit is a factor, in my opinion. For what many kits cost, I think the consumer has a reasonable expectation that the kit is an accurate representation.
This isn't just an issue with kit figures, it's also debated by the toy soldier collectors (you should see how het up the King & Country collectors get) as well as among scale modelers.
Prost!
Brad
This isn't just an issue with kit figures, it's also debated by the toy soldier collectors (you should see how het up the King & Country collectors get) as well as among scale modelers.
Prost!
Brad
Bailey
A Fixture
Interesting topic. I try to balance historical accuracy with an interesting figure sculpt. A meticulously researched sculpt with a poorly done face, anatomy, or just a boring pose it's going to be one I'd like to paint. At the same time, a figure with glaring historical inaccuracies will turn me off even if it has a great dynamic pose. Obviously I'd like to have both, a perfect historical representation and a great sculpt. But I'm willing to make compromises and accept minor historical inaccuracies if I really like the sculpture. Sometimes they are things I can fix and sometimes they are things I just have to ignore.
I've learned a lot of history through this hobby. My main area of interest are ancients (Greeks/Romans) so I'm a better judge of accuracy for those figures. Still there's plenty I don't know and turn to the experts on the forums for guidance. It's a difficult subject since it is so far removed and companies frequently do more hollywood versions. I also enjoy working on Napoleonics but I admit I am less informed about their uniforms so I have a harder time judging the figures. Again I turn to my reference books and the wealth of knowledge on sites like this. I strive for accuracy but I don't let the quest for perfection take away from my enjoyment of the hobby.
I've learned a lot of history through this hobby. My main area of interest are ancients (Greeks/Romans) so I'm a better judge of accuracy for those figures. Still there's plenty I don't know and turn to the experts on the forums for guidance. It's a difficult subject since it is so far removed and companies frequently do more hollywood versions. I also enjoy working on Napoleonics but I admit I am less informed about their uniforms so I have a harder time judging the figures. Again I turn to my reference books and the wealth of knowledge on sites like this. I strive for accuracy but I don't let the quest for perfection take away from my enjoyment of the hobby.
Ray Stout
PlanetFigure Supporter
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2014
- Messages
- 486
Bailey, I completely agree, half the enjoyment in this hobby for me is the research when tackling a figure in a different period to one that I know. I can still remember when accuracy was considered so important, that a beautiful figure,(not mine), missed out on wining, because the painter had given Napoleon the wrong eye colour!!!!! and that was in 54mm. This happened in a National Competion. I dont suggest that we have to go to such lengths now, but let's try to keep some integrety. e.g. Boudica was a well documented mother of 3 daughters, and according to contemporary accounts, was a bit on the hefty side, but do you see this in commercial available figures? No. Why? Isuspect that would not be a commercially viable figure.
Gaudin
A Fixture
C'mon now, surely Boudica was young once, she wasn't born a fat but charismatic mother of 3
Ray Stout
PlanetFigure Supporter
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2014
- Messages
- 486
That's true, but she only became known after the Romans gang-raped her daughters, and provoked the rebelium, which then brought her to be known, which is the time when she led her tribe, and which is the time when she is portrayed. Do you see any figures "out there" that are called "Boudica, when she's a Teenager"??? No, I dont think so.
As for Romans, all kit was hand made and frequently repaired. If you saw a better mail shirt or helmet on the battlefield, you took it. Arms and armour (although probably not shields) would have been recycled and re-issued. Different depots would have had different styles of manufacture. The documentary and reference material is sparse and open to interpretation. Of course soldiers (sailors and airmen) in the field now do their own thing, but there is much greater uniformity of kit which is mass produced.
This is a hobby, and if a well posed but slightly inaccurate figure 'floats your boat', then go for it. You have the choice of buying it, modifying it, or not, as you prefer. Personally I like a well researched and well posed figure.
Mike
This is a hobby, and if a well posed but slightly inaccurate figure 'floats your boat', then go for it. You have the choice of buying it, modifying it, or not, as you prefer. Personally I like a well researched and well posed figure.
Mike
