How Dark Do You Go ?

[Carlos69]

Hi Gents,

I paint mostly 35th - 1/16th scale, but mostly 35th ... I paint in quite high contrast and go down to nearly black under the chin area to the face in 35th.

I have plenty of busts LOL in 1/9th and 1/10th and I have a couple on the bench, I have only ever painted two busts to now.

My question is how dark do you go under the chin area,under the brows of the eyes etc.. but mostly under the chin.When I go down to nearly black at this scale in this area it looks way to much, yet in 35th its looking ok.

Any thoughts or images would be appreciated guys

Many thx




Carlos

 

[Colin_Fraser]

No way I would go that dark but then I am not a high contrast painter - I guess I'm an old fart and I actively don't like the high contrast style. The problem with using it on a larger scale bust is that the viewer can get under the chin and look up at it. Blackish colours would look all wrong to many. I would suggest using purples, sepias, greens, brown madder aizarin or colours like that. But in the end analysis its what you like that matters. Good luck.

Colin

 

[Mirofsoft]

High contrast is typicaly " warhammer school", where they teach to make " armies" in short time, paint a face ; black, dry brush deep with brolo-brolo green, add n'golo n'golo green, dry brush, add shamelees white, dry brush, add gonzo gonzo white, dry brush.... 6 min.

As CRF,I'm from old school, I like " subdued " tones . You have to be like the most talented Turner to use blacks blacker than black

 

[Einion]

When I go down to nearly black at this scale in this area it looks way to much, yet in 35th its looking ok.

Yep, that's exactly why I wouldn't do that on a bust. But tastes vary.

With pushed contrast being seen more and more in recent years many large-scale paintjobs do feature around the same contrast you'd have previously expected to see at smaller scales, it's even been taken to extremes with some stuff (including busts) having a wider contrast range than you'd have previously seen at 1/35 scale! This looks artificial and forced to me, no matter how well done it is technically and how much it's 'embroidered' - eye candy like intricate weathering, the suggestion of fabric texture, patterns.

High contrast is typicaly " warhammer school"...

Plenty of stuff not done in a Warhammer style features extreme contrast. You don't even have to look very far to find them, you can see a great many posted here on pF (mostly in the News).

Einion

 

[Mirofsoft]

"Plenty of stuff not done in a Warhammer style features extreme contrast. You don't even have to look very far to find them, you can see a great many posted here on pF (mostly in the News)."

Yes you are right, but to my eyes of oldies, some of them looks like an Archimboldo painting .
Aaahh ! Those tries at painting a bust or a figure in variation of grey, good painting job but it's not a figure... extend your "essai" and try the same bust in variation of blues, then in green then in sand, then in...
And why not a figure in the next competition looking like a Bernard Buffet ....
Or try soldering pieces of different figures in any position , hammer the head to a cube; it's art... or solder a 120mm fantasy bust, set it in a chrome bad
and fix it on your car hood . Or cut 25mm arms, solder them interlaced two by two and make a necklace... ( variation ; use legs ) or use a bust supporting a champagne cup, or make thee spoons and use legs for handles ....
I don't like that and refuse to play the game and say every time : nice work, splendid, awesome, and the lye of all lies : interesting, inventive ; I just stopped making any comment when I see one .

 

[Carlos69]

Thanks for your thoughts gents,its definetly a style you love or hate but I have allways painted contrasty and it intrigues me how it would work on a larger scale bust.

I dont think its the Warhammer school or was developed from such, but it is in vogue if you look around the various sites ... im in two minds at larger scales but will and allways have painted this way in 35th scale.

See this latest bust,this must go down to black near enough under the chin ? I would love to see under the chin to see how this works though ?!

I think this is clever at this scale !

Any more thoughts on this ? thanks for the input ...im still messing around with purples and the like at the minute ...

Cheers

Carlos

 

[Carlos69]

Just noticed this,on my PC screen my Avatar image is about the size of a 1/9th head. Under the chin area is near enough black ... if we see it should we paint it ?

 

[housecarl]

I don't know if you've seen this Carl?http://hecklerkoch.blog.me/
Carl.

 

[Mirofsoft]

I admit that this bust is particularly well painted
But I tnink that at this scale, under the shin and the helmet it's the natural shadow due to the positioning of the light . But as you said it would be interesting to see it, and have a look from down to up
Best

 

[Carlos69]

Mirosoft I agree thx

I don't know if you've seen this Carl?http://hecklerkoch.blog.me/
Carl.

Thanks for that Carl,will take a good look didnt think to check out there webpage for more info ... I have the Peiper bust and its awesome quality,probally the best I have ever seen. Theres an SBS for it on there. Good find

 

[Einion]

See this latest bust,this must go down to black near enough under the chin ? I would love to see under the chin to see how this works though ?!

I was going to raise the point earlier about viewing stuff in the flesh versus photos, and pieces painted specifically to photograph (particularly if intended for boxart) but wanted to keep things simpler.

Anyway, there's a lot of work like this that it would be best to see firsthand to judge the appearance properly, although of course this is difficult or impossible for a lot of folks. One help here is alternate photos of something taken at a show, Euro in particular, which often reveal how much a good lighting setup has contributed to what we see in pics (especially when viewed on a computer monitor).

Back to the basic point of how dark one might go, I'm not sure if Mirofsoft's point is exactly the same as this but at larger scales one of the reasons you don't need to paint such dark shadows is because the natural shadowing shows more. The best way to visualise this is to use an extreme example like 1/4 scale busts, which obviously don't need anything like the same degree of shading work as on a 1/16 head to look similar.

Just noticed this,on my PC screen my Avatar image is about the size of a 1/9th head. Under the chin area is near enough black ... if we see it should we paint it ?

You're sporting an amount of 5 o'clock shadow in the photo aren't you? That would of course make that area darker than otherwise, plus from a glancing angle the colour is more pronounced anyway (very similar to the way stockings look as they go around the curve away from the viewer).

Obviously there is an issue here of what colour that area is on a bust - if the subject has dark hair and you're depicting them unshaven then it has to be painted in an appropriate colour. I was thinking initially about how dark you'd go shading a skintone-coloured area (much the same as on the underside of the nose and under the brows).

Einion

 

[brian]

Yep, that's exactly why I wouldn't do that on a bust. But tastes vary.

With pushed contrast being seen more and more in recent years many large-scale paintjobs do feature around the same contrast you'd have previously expected to see at smaller scales, it's even been taken to extremes with some stuff (including busts) having a wider contrast range than you'd have previously seen at 1/35 scale! This looks artificial and forced to me, no matter how well done it is technically and how much it's 'embroidered' - eye candy like intricate weathering, the suggestion of fabric texture, patterns.



Plenty of stuff not done in a Warhammer style features extreme contrast. You don't even have to look very far to find them, you can see a great many posted here on pF (mostly in the News).

Einion

Regarding the contrast taken to the extreme, especially busts, i totally agree with you Einion that it looks artificial and forced,but it seems that's where most of the medals are going at Euro.I'm an old timer at this hobby and have made changes through out the years to my technique of painting but i still keep the style of painting i've always preferred.This is not to say that the more OTT paint jobs aren't pleasing on the eye in an artistic way but how does one judge between an artistic figure and a realistic figure of equal merit without being biased? Then there's the figures where the embroidery and the designs painted on shields etc,wouldn't be out of place in the Sistine chapel, but the face is mediocre.
In conclusion,i've been awarded my fair share of awards at Euro over the years but as i've said before and i'll say it again,getting positive feedback from my peers such as on this forum and at shows gives me more pleasure than awards at Euro where at most 3 people have given their opinion,(although Euro medals are still nice to get)
Sorry for wittering on but i've always wanted to vent my spleen on this subject matter.
Brian

 

[pmfs]

Hi Carlos!

I like what you did in SS bust from Young.
Try not to force the highlights and shadows like you do in 1:35 figures. Blending process is the secret, as for acrylics as for oils.

Pedro.

 

[Alex Long]

It's an interesting question Carlos mate. I think the example you picked of the Life Miniatures bust proves you that you can go that dark under the chin and still have a realistic looking model. Of course Einions comments are all very valid and from a well educated perspective and it would be foolish not to consider his points, and I tend to agree with them so I wont repeat them. I would say though that I am not opposed to forcing a perspective on the viewer, many artists do it in many different art forms; painting; illustration; film etc, and I think with our hobby it produces a great effect when done well. I think maybe the key is getting a blend between realism and artistic impression that you are happy with, obviously the higher we go up in scale the less scope we have for creating an effect that natural light wouldn't, but there is still enough room to play with a 1/9th bust. I'm gonna have a go at my Pieper bust as my next project I think (painting an Andrea 54mm Napoleonic figure as a gift at the moment) so It should be a very interesting challenge.

Alex.

 

[Einion]

...but how does one judge between an artistic figure and a realistic figure of equal merit without being biased?

Good question! I think usually it'll come down to the judge, with old-school types favouring the more realistic/naturalistic one and younger judges possibly favouring the artistic paintjob maybe (all other aspects being as equal as possible obviously).

Just to relate this back to previous discussions about the best systems for running a show - it doesn't have to be a question of judging between two such entries, when ideally both should be rewarded if they're done to a similarly high standard.

Your question would still arise though if it came down to picking from amongst the gold winners which model will be awarded BOS, but with that at least the painting style becomes one of many factors that should be taken into account.

Like with anything to do with judging/judgements of other people's work, it's a thorny issue.

Einion

 

[Tecumsea]

The shin tonnes on that life miniatures bust make the guy look as though he has been pickled, if I ever saw a human looking like that I would suggest a quick trip to A&E

Keith

 

[Meehan34]

I like high contrast and think it adds more drama and a better artistic showing on figures and busts. It isn't for everyone though as our warhammer spoons for legs hating old schooler said above. I don't think black would be the color to use though (as said above). A deep deep violet or deep blackish green would be a better choice (among many others). I would like to see you give it a try in black and completley force the lighting on the bust to see how it comes out. I've often wondered how it would work but have never gone that far before. Who knows, it migh be so totally awesome that you start something.

 

[Carlos69]

Thanks gents, some interesting points raised. Contrast is some thing I like to see in minis,with forced lighting but it is hard knowing where to stop some times ... especially for me going from 35th to 1/9th scale.

I see more and more large scale pieces with increased contrast such as the above artwork which I find intriguing, a style you would of associated with smaller scale mini's in the past.

Im still interested in the darkest shade under the chin and brow areas etc .. that some painters go. Im using darker shades mixed with black but not straight black.

Any under chin shots out there gentlemen ?


Thanks

Carlos

 

[blaster]

Wow Carlos,

I was initially sceptical but you've made your point about using black for shading in larger scales. To my eyes and all intent, there is a lot of black in those shaded areas and they work.

Rgds Victor

 

[Sturm Grenadier]

Hello Carlos, This is a very interesting post, along with the comments so far. I'm assuming you would like to try this shading of the chin and brow areas using oil paint. You may have already tried these few suggestions: When I was using Winsor & Newton oils, I would mix Burnt Umber with Permanent Magenta 1:1 for my shadow colors. This gives a very dark brownish black hue before adding your basic flesh tone to the mix. I would also add a touch of Mars Violet under the brow and chin areas. Burnt Umber is a very strong color, so if it needed spiced up, I would add a touch of Mars Orange, or Mars Red, with Brown Madder Alizarin to the blend. You could also use a black or dark brown primer/undercoat before adding your fleshtones. Hope I was able to help. Best of luck with your current project. Regards, SG