Ivan the Terrible

[AleksanderBodunov]

Hi everyone!
Bust of young tsar Ivan the Terrible.
The time of conquest of the Kazan.
Scale 1/9.
For Legionminiatures.

 

[NeilW]

Nice... though he looks a bit too jolly for Ivan The Terrible (or has he just sacked Novgorod?).

What's the chain-mail... it looks real (or is it just a 3D rendering)?

 

[Oda]

You've actually manufactured real mail in 1/9????You must be the God of patience!!!!!Excellent sculpting.

Oda.

 

[AleksanderBodunov]

Thanks!
Creating the chain-mail took a lot of time. I saw this method here.
A copper wire of 0.2 mm was wound on a 0.7 mm rod. It took about 1300 rings.

 

[Romariogendalf]

Really great job was done Alex

 

[Oda]

Thanks!
Creating the chain-mail took a lot of time. I saw this method here.
A copper wire of 0.2 mm was wound on a 0.7 mm rod. It took about 1300 rings.

Amazing!!!!!!!

Oda.

 

[NeilW]

Creating the chain-mail took a lot of time. I saw this method here.
A copper wire of 0.2 mm was wound on a 0.7 mm rod. It took about 1300 rings.

Fantastic dedication... I once looked at something similar but decided that life is too short

 

[Martin Antonenko]

An addition:

The slightly over-the-top looking helmet is completely correct!

These things were called "Шелом" (Shelom) - and he owned several of them ...:

Original...:



Replica...:



Very well researched bust Aleksandr - as ever!


Cheers

 

[Andrey]

Helmet of Ivan the Terrible from the Livrustkammaren (Sweden)

 

[NeilW]

Was Ivan sad? And what was wrong in Novgorod?

All the representations I've seen he's been pretty grim looking (maybe just the influence of the Vasnetsov portrait and Eisenstein's film).

As for Novgorod: didn't he order a massacre of its citizens based on a spurious accusation of treason?

Nice helmet BTW

 

[Andrey]

All the representations I've seen he's been pretty grim looking (maybe just the influence of the Vasnetsov portrait and Eisenstein's film).

As for Novgorod: didn't he order a massacre of its citizens based on a spurious accusation of treason?

Nice helmet BTW

Why don't the great king smile? Eisenstein and Vasnetsov did not see Grozny, so this is simply their view of man! But can not the sovereign restore order in his state, especially fighting treason?

 

[Sergei]

There is some chronological confusion here. The original post says that the bust represents Ivan during his Kazan campaign. Ivan took Kazan in 1552 and he sacked Novgorod in 1570. So, after the taking of Kazan Ivan would be smiling after killing the defenders of Kazan and demolishing their city. Generally, in Putin’s Russia Ivan is rehabilitated, his crimes are silenced, he is depicted as a great statesman who defended mother Russia from treason and who was later slandered by foreigners and Jews. The idea is simple: Russia has always needed a strong ruler who did not hesitate to kill people, be it Ivan the Terrible, Stalin or Putin. For the first time in Russian history, monuments to Ivan the Terrible are erected in different parts of the country, which is of course a great shame. Some Russian sculptors are obviously capitalising on recent political trends by showing Ivan in a positive sympathetic way.

 

[NeilW]

Hi Andrey,

First off, as I previously said: a great sculpt and an absolute labour of love with the mail

My comments were meant lightheartedly as in pretty-well all the depictions of him that I've seen he has a pretty grim face. As far as I know there are no contemporary portrayals other than this, plus this forensic reconstruction (did they dig him up?)

Otherwise, my comment about Novgorod (which I know was later than this bust depicts) was that he was sadistically reflecting on the five weeks of mayhem inflicted on Novgorod's citizens by his Oprichniki on what may well have been pretty spurious evidence of treason. Even if it wasn't, why punish and massacre the lower townspeople rather than just the ringleaders (I understand were tortured and subjected to what we'd now call show trials... all common practice across Europe/Asia, I know)?

I know it's open to being shouted down, but Wiki, based on Russian sources says:

Ivan's terrible ‘vengeance’ left Novgorod severely wounded. The death toll of the massacre is uncertain. According to the Third Novgorod Chronicle, the massacre lasted for five weeks. The First Pskov Chronicle gives the number of victims as 60,000. These numbers are debated, however, and are not from an impartial source.[14] Western sources from the time give figures ranging from 2,700 to 27,000 killed. Modern researchers estimate the number of victims in a range from 2,500 up to 12,000. Ruslan Skrynnikov, reconstructing the sinodiki (prayer lists) of the Kirillo-Belozersky Monastery, found only 1,505 named victims of the massacre, although these were most likely elite citizens and lesser citizens were not listed. Based on these lists, Skrynnikov considers that the number of victims was 2,000 to 3,000.[15] As the author of Ivan the Terrible (Ivan Grozny), R.G. Skrynnikov stated, "the sack of Novgorod is the most repulsive episode in the brutal history of the oprichnina. The cruel, senseless slaughter of innocent people made oprichnina synonymous with lawlessness and excess."[16]​

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_the_Terrible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Novgorod

For what it's worth, I also see that the statue in Oryol is also fairly grim-faced: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-russians-decry-tribute-to-ivan-the-terrible

All other things aside: a fantastic piece

 

[NeilW]

Ah... posted after Sergei's contribution

Thanks Sergei: I checked dates when I posted as above, but thanks for the correction anyway

 

[Romariogendalf]

There is some chronological confusion here. The original post says that the bust represents Ivan during his Kazan campaign. Ivan took Kazan in 1552 and he sacked Novgorod in 1570. So, after the taking of Kazan Ivan would be smiling after killing the defenders of Kazan and demolishing their city. Generally, in Putin’s Russia Ivan is rehabilitated, his crimes are silenced, he is depicted as a great statesman who defended mother Russia from treason and who was later slandered by foreigners and Jews. The idea is simple: Russia has always needed a strong ruler who did not hesitate to kill people, be it Ivan the Terrible, Stalin or Putin. For the first time in Russian history, monuments to Ivan the Terrible are erected in different parts of the country, which is of course a great shame. Some Russian sculptors are obviously capitalising on recent political trends by showing Ivan in a positive sympathetic way.

Dear Sergei
We are producing figures, busts and other things for people who love this. Pls keep yours politicals topics for Facebook or instagramm or other web sourses.

I am asking administration this fact at this site.

 

[braindoc]

Don’t really care about the politics
When will it go on sale and from whom?

 

[Romariogendalf]

Don’t really care about the politics
When will it go on sale and from whom?

In April by legionminiatures.org

 

[braindoc]

Thanks very much

 

[Martin Antonenko]

Для Сергея и Романа:

Успокойся, друзья!

Бюст действительно красивый - и что меня особенно радует, так это то, что он исторически верен - так хорошо изучен!

Я уверен, что она найдет своих поклонников среди любителей персонажей!

Что касается исторического Ивана IV:

Он был исторически действительно уникальным человеком - глубоко религиозным мясником, который должен быть объяснен основной склонностью к гневу, насилию и жестокости и действительно плохим переживаниям в детстве.

Недаром Иван был одним из любимых героев Сталина, и советский правитель смотрел знаменитый фильм Эйзенштейна так часто, что его, вероятно, можно считать его любимым фильмом.

Однако, в отличие от царя, Сталина убили с холодным умом!

Но на самом деле нет никаких параллелей между Путиным, с одной стороны, и Сталиным или Иваном IV, с другой!

За это и россияне, и украинцы должны быть благодарны своему Богу!


привет

----------------------------------------------------
To Sergej and Roman:

Calm down, friends!

The bust is really beautiful - and what I am particularly pleased about is that it is historically correct - so well researched!

I am sure it will find it's fans among the figure lovers!

As for historical Ivan IV:

He was a historically really unique person - a deeply religious butcher, which must be explained with a basic tendency to anger, violence and cruelty and the really bad experiences during his childhood.

It was not for nothing that Ivan was one of Stalin's favorite characters and the Soviet ruler watched the famous film by Eisenstein so often that it can probably be considered his favorite film.

Unlike the Tsar, however, Stalin murdered with a cold mind!

But there are really no parallels between Putin on the one hand and Stalin or Ivan IV on the other!

For this, both Russians and Ukrainians should be thankful to their God!

Cheers

 

[Oda]

Dear Sergei
We are producing figures, busts and other things for people who love this. Pls keep yours politicals topics for Facebook or instagramm or other web sourses.

I am asking administration this fact at this site.

I am totally on Romariogendalf's side on this.Our hobby is about the depiction of historical personages and historical facts.It is not about politics and this is a slippery path to take.There are already many FB modelling pages that forbid their members from posting pictures with swasticas even when these symbols are part of wehrmacht tanks and vehicles and totally substantiated by documentation.I see no reason to drag ourselves into something like that.History is history,it is full of dark and bloody pages and personages greater than life or fiction both in a good and a bad way.A purified and sanctified version of history based on modern political sensitivities does not promote our understanding of the past or how we can avoiding its mistakes.
Coming to the topic of Ivan Grozniy I can only say that it is considered a methodological fallacy to adopt modern criteria of politics or behavior in order to pass judgement on historical personages of bygone eras.Each historical personage or incident must be considered within the sociopolitical,economical and historical context of its own time and space.Was Ivan a violent man?Undoubtedly he was?Was he more violent than other warlords or state leaders of his time?It is open to question.He was a brute?Yes but so was Oliver Cromwell based on his and his army behavior in Ireland.Does anybody remember Drogheda?What about Badajoz?Welsley did not order the wholesale rape and sack of the town but he also did nothing to prevent it or contain it in time.Should we ban the Lord protector or the Duke from our benches?A few years before Ivan Aztec emperors,during their coronations,hosted festivals for their "allied"leaders where they intimidated them politically by making them watch human sacrifices of literally thousands of people in succession for a number of weeks(!!!!!!!!!).Human sacrifice was legitimate and sanctified in mesoamerican societies but the sheer scale the Aztec Emperors implemented them as political tool abhored even their contemporaries.Should sculptors stop producing Aztec warriors or should we stop painting them.I fear that if we go down this path we will end up sculpting and painting only busts of mother Teresa,Mahatma Ghandi and Sai Baba.
And one last remark.I do not try to legitimize or excuse Ivan's actions but he did suffer from a form of rheumatoid arthritis,a condition which the doctors of his day treated with painkillers containig mercury.We know today that mercury is neurotoxic and that chronic use can lead to schzophrenia.Ivan's violent and irrational actions in later life (including the tragic murder of his own son) are attributed mainly to this.
In closing I will only add that Constantine the Great,a late Roman emperor that spent most of his life as a general in Britain,is the one that made Christianity the one and only religion of the empire,is today worshiped as a Saint in the Greek-Orthodox Christendom (he was sanctified before the schism so he is probably venerated in some way by other Christian Doctrines as well) did not have any problem slaughtering his entire family (and did not lose his Saint status because of that)

I will be glad to enter into any kind of historical discussion in public or in PM but I must say that I will decline entering into political discussions containing modern terms,categories and agendas.

Thank you for your patience with my long post fellow planeteers.Keep on being creative and have lots of fun doing it.

Oda.