Just a wee bit of a rant.
- Thread starter Mike S.
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Mike S.
A Fixture
Sorry to upset your sacred cows people. My opinion is valid and well founded, but you don't have to agree, or get in a snit about it for that matter.
I understand why those of you who are manufacturers are grumbling, since this is part of your current bread and butter. It's obvious that you have a dog in the fight.
Concerning the term "fad" in this conversation;
I have been in this hobby for 35+ years, and I can assure you that scale military busts from the figure manufacturers were few and far between until very recently.
I understand why those of you who are manufacturers are grumbling, since this is part of your current bread and butter. It's obvious that you have a dog in the fight.
Concerning the term "fad" in this conversation;
I have been in this hobby for 35+ years, and I can assure you that scale military busts from the figure manufacturers were few and far between until very recently.
gordy
A Fixture
I haven't seen anyone getting in a snit about it, publicly anyway.
Can it be just a progression of new sculptors on the upswing?
My first busts were certainly 'tobacco Indian' style, and over time have evolved better ( so I hope!
)
Defining a "bust" in the classical sense ala Jean-Antoine Houdon's Voltaire is simple.
Our art is relatively new, in terms of over all classical art (yes, there have been miniatures, toy soldiers, etc for the past 100-200+ years) It has now in the last 50 years evolved into it's own right, and distanced itself from toy soldiers. We are on the beginning of new form of art, and we are in a position to define new terminology specific to our craft.
Can it be just a progression of new sculptors on the upswing?
My first busts were certainly 'tobacco Indian' style, and over time have evolved better ( so I hope!
) Defining a "bust" in the classical sense ala Jean-Antoine Houdon's Voltaire is simple.
Our art is relatively new, in terms of over all classical art (yes, there have been miniatures, toy soldiers, etc for the past 100-200+ years) It has now in the last 50 years evolved into it's own right, and distanced itself from toy soldiers. We are on the beginning of new form of art, and we are in a position to define new terminology specific to our craft.
Andrew Craft
A Fixture
While I fully respect your point of view I found what you said amused me a little but only because it's the total opposite of what I think. At the end of every month when all the companies release their next months figures I'm on the edge of my seat eager to see the next bust they will release and am always disappointed with the ratio of full figures compared to busts. But I understand that full figures probably sell more, they just aren't my thing.
While I understand that many in this hobby are keen military historians, the reason I mainly paint busts is so that I don't have to paint uniforms, while there are a lot of great colorful uniforms there are also a lot of plain dreary uniforms too. While I totally appreciate and respect what service men and women sacrifice for the people they fight for I really don't like military history much at all.
I paint figures purely based on the artistic side of the hobby. I am still very new to the hobby and maybe over time my interest in the historic side of things may change. But at the moment I would love to see more non military busts, until then I'll paint whichever bust catches my eye.
Just my two cents, thought it was interesting that we both have such different takes on the subject.
Cheers,
Andrew
When I was actively painting; I rarely purchased busts if they had arms and especially hands. I hate painting hands! My opinion then was that a bust is a character study or a portrait. Yes, I am a traditionalist. However, when I painted Bonaparte's Cheyenne Squaw bust, my views changed. That bust simply would not work without the full arms, hand and buffalo robe.
I still dislike busts with accoutrements or in "action poses." A half shield or half a scabbard just doesn't "work" for me. The same with what I call "amputee arms." Arms that are cut in the middle of the forearm or at the wrist. Just does not look natural to me; looks like an amputee, it draws my eye away from the face, which should be the focal point of any bust.
Faces turned skyward and/or turned to an extreme angle also are problematic for me. Makes it very difficult to mount the bust, where the face is the focal point.
In some instances, I bought "half-figure" bust kits and ground them on the disc sander to make "traditional" busts.
Artists are individuals, everyone has their favorite medium, period, style, etc. The bottomline is if you like it buy it. If not, don't. That is the beauty of this hobby, the choices are unlimited. Paint what appeals to you!
I still dislike busts with accoutrements or in "action poses." A half shield or half a scabbard just doesn't "work" for me. The same with what I call "amputee arms." Arms that are cut in the middle of the forearm or at the wrist. Just does not look natural to me; looks like an amputee, it draws my eye away from the face, which should be the focal point of any bust.
Faces turned skyward and/or turned to an extreme angle also are problematic for me. Makes it very difficult to mount the bust, where the face is the focal point.
In some instances, I bought "half-figure" bust kits and ground them on the disc sander to make "traditional" busts.
Artists are individuals, everyone has their favorite medium, period, style, etc. The bottomline is if you like it buy it. If not, don't. That is the beauty of this hobby, the choices are unlimited. Paint what appeals to you!
theBaron
A Fixture
Hear, hear, well put!
As a tangent to the question of preferences for painting a bust or not, have any of you fans of busts painted one in a stone or a bronze finish? Or do you prefer painting them to your usual or customary style? It occurred to me that I could see getting some, especially Puchala's latest works, and trying a marble finish on them. Perhaps not as much of a stretch of skills as otherwise, but I'm also a scale modeler, so I could definitely enjoy the exercise and hone other skills in the process.
If someone would ever put out kits of men of the arts and sciences, I'd lean even more towards finishing them with a stone or bronze finish. I've always wanted a bust of Beethoven, like Schroeder had.
Prost!
Brad
Mike S.
A Fixture
Picking up on what Brad mentioned about painted busts, in actuality, Greek, Roman, Egyptian busts and full figures, beautifully sculpted in marble, were actually originally fully painted in bright colors during their respective eras. This was also done to the facades of their buildings as well.
Even some of the Renaissance sculptures were painted to appear more lifelike.
Today, we would be aghast at such a thing, and deem it very tacky indeed.
To reiterate, my criticism isn't so much against the miniature bust wholesale, rather the caliber of many that have been released. There are indeed gems among the mediocre ones. Having said that, I admit to generally preferring whole figures for the purpose of this hobby, at least my view on it.
Even some of the Renaissance sculptures were painted to appear more lifelike.
Today, we would be aghast at such a thing, and deem it very tacky indeed.
To reiterate, my criticism isn't so much against the miniature bust wholesale, rather the caliber of many that have been released. There are indeed gems among the mediocre ones. Having said that, I admit to generally preferring whole figures for the purpose of this hobby, at least my view on it.
Anders Heintz
A Fixture
Out of curiosity, what busts would these mediocre ones be? Concidering the busts used to be really popular, then died off for a while and now have made a welcomed comeback, and not only a comeback, but an explosion of more well sculpted busts then ever before.
I would say the exact opposite of your statement, that we have more high quality busts being released then mediocre ones.
As such I find your view intriguing and would love to see a series of these 'mediocre' busts, perhaps followed up by the very few gems.
Mike S.
A Fixture
I am not going to embarrass anyone by posting a lineup of the worst offenders. Some of the creators might view this forum, and that would be unnecessary and cruel.
As I said, I am a commercial illustrator and artist by training and profession, however the merits of a piece are still within the eye of the beholder. I'm simply giving my opinions on this.
If you are truly desirous to see those busts I think fit the bill, I DO make a point of voting on them via the LIKE button when they appear on this forum. Fortunately, many of the finest miniature sculptors in the business frequent this board, and produce the cream of the crop within the genre.
As I said, I am a commercial illustrator and artist by training and profession, however the merits of a piece are still within the eye of the beholder. I'm simply giving my opinions on this.
If you are truly desirous to see those busts I think fit the bill, I DO make a point of voting on them via the LIKE button when they appear on this forum. Fortunately, many of the finest miniature sculptors in the business frequent this board, and produce the cream of the crop within the genre.
Bailey
A Fixture
I think busts have their place. Personally I like how they let me focus on painting the face and on a scale larger than most full body models. However, because there is less to a bust, I feel they are more unforgiving. The artist has only the head and shoulders with which to capture our attention. So yes, not every bust is a masterpiece, but the same can be said for full figures.
Anders Heintz
A Fixture
Thats fair enough Mike, and understand your reasoning. Still curious though
Ferris
A Fixture
I'm not a fan of busts, but must say some look outstanding. They're probably good for getting experience at face painting. Then again, painting bigger-scale faces is different than the smaller full-figure faces (~max 1:16 usually).
I agree with the remarks on free market: if people like busts, they will buy them. That said, I do hope the manufacturors will keep producing full figures, even if the demand for busts seem to soar. I will only help boosting their sales if there are full figures on offer. So I guess the manufacturors have to look for a ballance in the number of busts versus full figures they produce. I hope Young will do some full figures soon....
Cheers,
Adrian
I agree with the remarks on free market: if people like busts, they will buy them. That said, I do hope the manufacturors will keep producing full figures, even if the demand for busts seem to soar. I will only help boosting their sales if there are full figures on offer. So I guess the manufacturors have to look for a ballance in the number of busts versus full figures they produce. I hope Young will do some full figures soon....
Cheers,
Adrian
Mike S.
A Fixture
Then you'll like anything!
Busts
Hi Guys ,
What a great thread and some interesting replys ..for me like most of us I started to do full figures and then was given a bust(a Bonapartes one if I remember rightly) and found that I really enjoyed painting it ... and now have a rather large gray army and a full display cabinet of them .
What constitutes a bust ..well for me something that hasn't got arms and is too far below the waist otherwise it might as well be a full figure (I do have a good friend that puts legs on busts .....gasp !!!!! and great they look as well) .
Facial Characteristics are obviously important , the likes of Carl Reid, Andy Cairns, Ken Farrar , UP Miniatures (Ulrich Puchala) and others all add great faces for most of us the face is what first attracts us to view a model as a potential purchase ..but saying that the subject has to be one I am interested in doing .
Like Carl and Ferris said its a business and things must sell and manufacturers try to strike the right mix of releases wether its full figures or busts.(at the moment its WW1 subjects that are to the fore!!)
I respect all other members viewpoints but or me I love them !!!!!
Nap
Hi Guys ,
What a great thread and some interesting replys ..for me like most of us I started to do full figures and then was given a bust(a Bonapartes one if I remember rightly) and found that I really enjoyed painting it ... and now have a rather large gray army and a full display cabinet of them .
What constitutes a bust ..well for me something that hasn't got arms and is too far below the waist otherwise it might as well be a full figure (I do have a good friend that puts legs on busts .....gasp !!!!! and great they look as well) .
Facial Characteristics are obviously important , the likes of Carl Reid, Andy Cairns, Ken Farrar , UP Miniatures (Ulrich Puchala) and others all add great faces for most of us the face is what first attracts us to view a model as a potential purchase ..but saying that the subject has to be one I am interested in doing .
Like Carl and Ferris said its a business and things must sell and manufacturers try to strike the right mix of releases wether its full figures or busts.(at the moment its WW1 subjects that are to the fore!!)
I respect all other members viewpoints but or me I love them !!!!!
Nap
PhilinYuma
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2007
- Messages
- 201
Mike. I would not for a moment challenge you superior artistic sensibility, your nose for a good "je ne sais quoi" or your ability to deliver an edifying art lecture to us, the artistically unwashed. Rhetoric is my area of expertise, however, at least to the extent that I taught it in one of them there swanky private universities.
Your most egregious rhetorical error is to label the interest in busts as a "fad". A fad is not something that has merely recently come into popularity, but something that after a short while went out of fashion. Since busts remain popular, your "fad" label looks suspiciously like a pejorative device. It gets into even deeper rhetorical water when you make a distinction -- and correct me if I am mistaken -- between "artistic" and "less than artistic" busts. Are they all fads, soon to be cast away by a discerning, or semi discerning public? And since some full figures also lack artistic merit, what is to become of them?
I like full figures, I must admit, because of their accoutrements. God knows, I have spent enough on books on the subject, and if you show me a figure from 1854 holding an Adams revolver, I expect it to have the right kind of hammer, not something from 1860. And my preference doesn't just stop there. If the figure is a cavalryman, I'm happy if you toss in a horse as well.
After reading your most stimulating and provocative thread, I decided to check out a few manufacturers' busts, to see if I had been missing something and came across those by Michael Miniatures. Wow! Have you seen the busts of the 17th and 21st Lancers? Just think of being able to paint up those helmet badges in a scale that does them justice! Think of being able to paint a British lancer without having to paint those damned double stripes on his pants! I shall certainly be setting up a piggy bank for both of them.
So in the end, you have succeeded, willy nilly, in achieving the goal of every would-be rhetorician, you have made me, at least, change my mind on the subject of busts!
Your most egregious rhetorical error is to label the interest in busts as a "fad". A fad is not something that has merely recently come into popularity, but something that after a short while went out of fashion. Since busts remain popular, your "fad" label looks suspiciously like a pejorative device. It gets into even deeper rhetorical water when you make a distinction -- and correct me if I am mistaken -- between "artistic" and "less than artistic" busts. Are they all fads, soon to be cast away by a discerning, or semi discerning public? And since some full figures also lack artistic merit, what is to become of them?
I like full figures, I must admit, because of their accoutrements. God knows, I have spent enough on books on the subject, and if you show me a figure from 1854 holding an Adams revolver, I expect it to have the right kind of hammer, not something from 1860. And my preference doesn't just stop there. If the figure is a cavalryman, I'm happy if you toss in a horse as well.
After reading your most stimulating and provocative thread, I decided to check out a few manufacturers' busts, to see if I had been missing something and came across those by Michael Miniatures. Wow! Have you seen the busts of the 17th and 21st Lancers? Just think of being able to paint up those helmet badges in a scale that does them justice! Think of being able to paint a British lancer without having to paint those damned double stripes on his pants! I shall certainly be setting up a piggy bank for both of them.
So in the end, you have succeeded, willy nilly, in achieving the goal of every would-be rhetorician, you have made me, at least, change my mind on the subject of busts!
Mike S.
A Fixture
You needn't have mentioned that your specialty was rhetoric, what a diatribe of a rebuff. Sheesh.
Look, some people will choose a Degas, others Elvis painted on black velvet. So be it.
It seems apparent that you are attempting to paint me with the brush of pomposity, but I think it backfired. I have to say that your post actually seems to display you in that light "Professor". Cheers for that.
I DID mention that this would likely solicit some flak, didn't I?
At what point did this turn from a conversation about the title subject, to let's insult the OP? I find that sort of topic derailment both boring and a waste of my time.
Look, some people will choose a Degas, others Elvis painted on black velvet. So be it.
It seems apparent that you are attempting to paint me with the brush of pomposity, but I think it backfired. I have to say that your post actually seems to display you in that light "Professor". Cheers for that.
I DID mention that this would likely solicit some flak, didn't I?
At what point did this turn from a conversation about the title subject, to let's insult the OP? I find that sort of topic derailment both boring and a waste of my time.
Ferris
A Fixture
Relax guys, this is a hobby.
Did you know busts and full figures can be combined? Look at this:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35926
Cheers,
Adrian
Did you know busts and full figures can be combined? Look at this:
http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35926
Cheers,
Adrian
billyturnip
A Fixture
Adrian, I thought for a second you were going to show us half a bloke poking out of a tank!!
Roger.
Roger.
gordy
A Fixture
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