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Roc

A Fixture
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
7,925
Location
Philadelphia, PA.
Minie Ball Miniatures

MB-05
Colonel John S. Mosby
CSA
54mm. resin

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Officer, 3rd New Jersey
Vol. Cavalry
(1st U.S. Hussars)
"The Butterflies"
54mm. resin

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Cheers
Roc. :)
 
What I would like to know is what reference Alan used for Mosby's coat? Not a cut I'm familier with.

Don't want rip on your figure Alan, but throw us a bone!

Ahhh, forget it...Does anybody care?

Call it "historical fiction" perhaps?
 
Gary,
I agree. Another thing that I noticed, is that the figure doesn't appear to have a belt plate.

Jason,
I agree with you on the uniform, but we can't complain about cookie cutter figures AND figures with unusual uniforms, yet I too have not seen Mosby in a uniform coat like that. lots of conversion potential though.
 
Greetings,
Regarding Moseby's jacket. I'll check with Bob Cotrell, and I assume the uniform style was a collaboration between Bob and Alan Ball. Bob did tell me that after Capt Moseby was promoted to Col (in 1864) he grew a short beard and this figure is representing Moseby at that time, so it appears as though it was researched. Alan has done a great job capturing Moseby's image.
I believe figure does have a belt plate.
And the painter in this photo is Doug Cohen (and the 3rd NJ shown above painted by Marion Ball).
I must comment on this new company, and its owner, Col Bob Cotrell (retired). Bob has a passion for figure painting and the Civil War. He is piecing together a line that is not overly priced (while using excellent sculptors and one of America's premier resin figure casters). His box art has been painted by some of our hobby's best (Marion Ball and Doug Cohen).
Part of his line is a portrait head series (Alan did sculpting) and the likeness to each personality captured for each head is excellent.
Bob's got a good imagination that he has applied to figure design, Some of the "unusual" subjects he has released are flying quail (I'd love to see these in a painted figure scene and how the creator will affix the birds to the base, since they are in flight!), as well as an eagle fineal (commonly used by many regiments instead of spearpoint during Civil War).
His "Lorena" dancing girl figure is based on a famous song that was popular in Civil War camp sites, and 2 add'l figures are planned to create a 3 figure vignette.
I dont believe any mfr has released any Native American Confederates but Bob has addressed this neglected subject with his release of a Cherokee Mounted Rifles Regt figure (by Mr Ball).
Take a 2nd look at this line. Its well done and the casting quality is excellent.
Regards,
John
 
I,ve seen several images of Mosby and he is shown wearing a number of coats/jackets. There are only two images I've seen that show a bearded Mosby, one wearing a frock coat and the other wearing a shell type jacket. The images of an unbearded Mosby show him in either a shell jacket or a sack type coat, which is what I believe Alan has him wearing. I wish I had the dates for all the images as one may be able to reconstruct somewhat of a timeline as to what uniform type(s) may have been more common to see him wearing while he sported a beard. It would be nice to have some written documentation also as he may have worn one of the other varieties and just did not get photographed wearing it. Here an image of Mosby wearing what is styled more like a sack coat, though it's hard to see if the lapels are the same.~Gary
 
Well, I have to say that I never thought it to be a sack coat. Maybe because most commercial sacks I've seen had rounded corners at the bottom of the coat and had a longer or fuller body.

Matt's right about conversion potential. Just round the corners a bit and or perhaps make the body longer (but not too much).
 
Originally posted by milminwh@Nov 20 2005, 07:52 AM
Greetings,
Regarding Moseby's jacket. I'll check with Bob Cotrell, and I assume the uniform style was a collaboration between Bob and Alan Ball. Bob did tell me that after Capt Moseby was promoted to Col (in 1864) he grew a short beard and this figure is representing Moseby at that time, so it appears as though it was researched. Alan has done a great job capturing Moseby's image.
I believe figure does have a belt plate.
And the painter in this photo is Doug Cohen (and the 3rd NJ shown above painted by Marion Ball).
I must comment on this new company, and its owner, Col Bob Cotrell (retired). Bob has a passion for figure painting and the Civil War. He is piecing together a line that is not overly priced (while using excellent sculptors and one of America's premier resin figure casters). His box art has been painted by some of our hobby's best (Marion Ball and Doug Cohen).
Part of his line is a portrait head series (Alan did sculpting) and the likeness to each personality captured for each head is excellent.
Bob's got a good imagination that he has applied to figure design, Some of the "unusual" subjects he has released are flying quail (I'd love to see these in a painted figure scene and how the creator will affix the birds to the base, since they are in flight!), as well as an eagle fineal (commonly used by many regiments instead of spearpoint during Civil War).
His "Lorena" dancing girl figure is based on a famous song that was popular in Civil War camp sites, and 2 add'l figures are planned to create a 3 figure vignette.
I dont believe any mfr has released any Native American Confederates but Bob has addressed this neglected subject with his release of a Cherokee Mounted Rifles Regt figure (by Mr Ball).
Take a 2nd look at this line. Its well done and the casting quality is excellent.
Regards,
John
John,
Don't get me wrong, I love this line in fact I am hoping that Bob will be at SCAHMS in March (he is from CA) because by that time I should have my workbench pretty clear. If he is I'll be buying most of the line, providing SWMBO lets me :) Since Dave Whitford and I are friends, I have seen Lorena close up and that is one nice figure and every time Dave sees me he assures me they other two are on the way. That having been said, the Mosby figure just looks off to me, BUT I have a number of ideas for it.
 
Hi Matt,
Firstly, no need to apologize! ;) I have commented before that if one is looking for an honest opinion, pF is the place to be.
I thought Gary's comment was interesting about a "timeline" for Moseby's unforms, but the more I thought about, the more I thought unnecessary. Doubtfully, there is no log of how the guy dressed on a daily basis. Maybe he had 3 or 4 jackets. Maybe the one depicted on the figure, which is a bit longer for cavalry, is historically incorrect...we'll never know.
After all I've read about the Civil War, consistency in (especially) CSA uniforms was not at all common.
Perhaps Moseby owned a coat at the length on the figure, but did not wear it often since it was too long to comfortably ride a horse.
I visited the Museum of the Confederacy last year (Richmond) and was so surprised to see the coat that Lee wore to surrender to Grant at Appomatox contained officer's braids on the sleeves. He wore this uniform since he considered it his best. But all of the photos we see of the general never show him wearing this. I doubt the surrender at Appomatox was his first time.
I think achieving historical accuracy on Confederate uniforms is a very vague task to accomplish, but does make for interesting conversation.
Regards
 
Originally posted by milminwh@Nov 20 2005, 04:56 PM
I thought Gary's comment was interesting about a "timeline" for Moseby's unforms, but the more I thought about, the more I thought unnecessary. Doubtfully, there is no log of how the guy dressed on a daily basis. Maybe he had 3 or 4 jackets.

Perhaps Moseby owned a coat at the length on the figure, but did not wear it often since it was too long to comfortably ride a horse.

I think achieving historical accuracy on Confederate uniforms is a very vague task to accomplish, but does make for interesting conversation.
John, I think I may have mentioned the possibility that Mosby had at another time wore a uniform coat or jacket that he did not have his image made wearing it during the period he sported a beard and mustache. Given that this is not so, and unless there is some sort of written documentation, I personally prefer to not adopt a "could have worn" type of assumption. Adopting this method is not research, but mere guess work. My "timeline" idea was based on photographic evidence that could be documented to certain points in Mosby's career.

In regards to achieving historical accuracy on Confederate uniforms, I have to disagree that it is a vague task. There is probably more information than ever, that still continues to surface shattering the "ragged rebel" image we've all grown up with.

Though these threads can turn heated I hope it at leasts gets those who are reading this to research and find out more about not only the uniforms, but weapons and equipment as well.

While this period leaves some questions unanswered, there are many that have been answered and it would be nic to see folks get more in depth in their research rather than basing a project on one plate or photograph rather than several sources.~Gary
 
Hi

I am fully up for the "Could have worn" concept, I do find it hard to take when someone will say "They never worn that", who knows what actually happened when clothing was low or unattainable etc (not just acw but all wars).

Good idea for the interchangeable parts, makes some of the above post a little misguided.

Robin
 
Though these threads can turn heated I hope it at leasts gets those who are reading this to research and find out more about not only the uniforms, but weapons and equipment as well.

While this period leaves some questions unanswered, there are many that have been answered and it would be nic to see folks get more in depth in their research rather than basing a project on one plate or photograph rather than several sources.~Gary

Hi Gary,

Firstly, I dont believe this will turn into a heated argument!

You need to understand that (in my humble opinion), postings made by yourself on this site can carry some weight. Questioning the historical accuracy of Moseby's jacket is too far out in left field to place any negative connotations with this product. I dont want to debate Confederate uniforms with you. For the past 20 years or so, I have read 3-5 Civil War books per year (most without photos), and have learned that there was such a large variance in uniforms on both sides, hence my statement that there is a possibility that Moseby had worn several jackets. Many of his campaigns were close to home, and he actually went home between campaigns, so I think there is a good possibilty that he changed his clothing. If "good possibilty" doesnt cut it with you for historical accuracy of CSA uniforms, such is life.

I say your comments "carry weight" because you are a talented sculptor yourself, and you have so many uniform references related to American history (so I personally consider you to be quite an "authority"!). A negative comment from you can curtail the sale-ability of a figure. Bob Cotrell has a passion for the hobby and for the Civil War, and is trying to build a business. He has put out some excellent product (at great personal $ expense), and I hope he is sucessful, which would then put him in a position to re-invest his profits and release more products in the future (win-win for all of us).

Blatant mistakes on figures (perhaps) deserve to be pointed out. Bad service from a figure mfr or figure retailer to a customer should be pointed out. I'm only trying to make you see the other side. The laws of physics apply here - - - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Constructive criticism is a good thing, but please be aware that criticism from yourself (because of your own stature in this hobby) can have consequences that effect other people. And in my humble opinion (again due to your own stature in this hobby), you may want to think about the consequences (from a business perspective) of your statements, whereby proving accuracy is impossible (as in this case).

I most certainly hope that you do not take any of my comments personally!

Best Regards,

John
 
Originally posted by Alan@Nov 21 2005, 03:58 AM
The whole concept behind Bob Cotrells "Minie Ball" range is basically to provide parts for conversion , and to give some of the bits and pieces that are hard to find ( if they exist ).
To that end, he has the Quail, A cat, The Eagle finial mentioned before about 6 different types of carbine, Different Muskets and rifles, Saddle as a seperate piece ( Actually 5 pieces which will alow it to be adapted to fit many different horses from several companies ) , some different sets of legs and bodies and quite a few different heads ( including a few personalities that you don't see done by others)etc......individually all researched and referenced ( for example ,the numbers of each type of carbines delivered during the war .....when they were commissioned , when delivered etc)

The Figures Bob is releasing are a way of showing some of the possabilities that his range give. If some find that insulting to the intellgence then I tend to think we all may as well give up .

I was hoping that Bob Cotrell would come and answer the "questions" and the usual assumptions that have appeared as assertions of fact in this thread ,after all, these are his figures and this is his range , not mine , I just happen to be the person he asked to make some of the pieces .......................... but as he hasn't so far , so here are a few personal comments on them from me .

In this case, the legs used are the same as those on the 3rd NJ , In fact the whole figure is made from the spare parts etc...including the Mosby head.

The whole thing painted by Doug Cohen.

If Mosby wore that type of jacket on a day when he had a beard I have no idea , as I didn't know that this was to be a kit ...................could he have worn it , of course, if he ever stood in that pose on a piece of ground that looked like that , wore boots like that , well to be honest , I also have no idea .
But then again , I don't have a serious problem with a "Could have worn" approach if there is little hard evidence to go with ( two studio posed Photo's of Mosby over the period of the war is hardly conclusive proof of his daily attire over the period ............or how often and well he shaved ).

Looking At those two pictures, what can we say for certain about Mosby .........at least one time during ther war, he took off one jacket and put on another ( trousers and boots etc, we can't tell) .....at least one time in the war, he put on a hat and at some point in the war ( for at least a period) he didn't shave properly.

Apart from those bits obvious from the Photographs , duting the whole period of the war are we to assume that he was like a character in a Sit-com...never changing clothes , so he is "recognisable" as that character.............like Bart or Homer Simson , never change hairstyle like Marge ?
Wore the same clothes very day...all day ....slept in them etc .
That I find insulting to my intelligence I am afraid. This was real life ...not a Sit-com, and if I look in my wardrobe , I find that I have ( surprisingly) more than one set of clothing , going out on a limb here, but I am willing to guess that most people do too.


I remember a certain "Rogers Rangers " figure ( actually supposed to represent Rogers himself) which although a very nice figure in itself and well done , and one I would buy if it available........... gave me serious misgivings as regards the clothing and even the look of the guy ( compared to contemporary descriptions ).............so I am 100% sure that a "Could have worn" approach is acceptable to more people than would care to admit it ( for some reason, as it's perfectly logical ).

Anyway sorry to interrupt ............continue ripping apart at your leisure .
Alan, I believe my only comment regarding your sculpting was in reference to the legs being the same. If the rationale behind the "Minie Ball" range is to offer or encourage conversion possibilities great. It's a unique aspect that very few if any other manufacturers offer thus making it quite different. The only other manufacturer that comes close is Alpine miniatures, offering additional heads with differing headgear.

As regards to Mosby's clothing, I only posted two (2) of several images that were taken of him during the war. I do not recall posting anything to the effect that Mosby never changed clothes. That would have been pretty silly for me to suggest that and then go on to post images clearly showing two completely different coats/jackets. In regards to Mosby's uniform(s) is if you do not have problem approaching it from a "could have worn" angle, pleas do not take offense to it when someone disagrees with that approach?


In regards to the Robert Rogers figure, I'm guessing your commenting on mine as I think I'm the only one who has sculpted one on this forum. Please feel free to say so I have thick skin. The comments you posted on the Rogers thread seem contrary to what you're saying now. I sculpted the figure using some older source material in addition to the latest information regarding the appearance of Rogers Rangers from the period in question. I did state that the figure was based on a portrait by Historical artist/Historian Gary Zaboly who has studied the uniforms, weapons , equipment and history of the unit for several years. With that in mind the figure was sculpted using these sources and not with an attitude of what would look best. Roger's physical appearance is open to a much more varied interpretation to Mosby's as there is no portrait of Rogers done from life that I'm aware of. If you feel his appearance does not match any physical descriptions of him I ask you this. If a person is described as burly or stocky, are our individual interpretations going to completely match? Probably not. So if you're suggesting I'm quick to fault someone with a "could have worn" or "could have been" approach to something, yet not having a problem adopting it for myself is wrong. I would have not bothered gathering and using the sources listed if I chose to do the figure that way.

Sorry to see that you feel your figure is being ripped apart. It's nice to get positive feedback on ones work, but what can be seen as negative feedback can sometimes be turned into a positive. I'd rather have someone tell me how they honestly feel about what I've done verses what one feels I want to hear, as I learned nothing if there was a problem and the person just thought they'd be polite. Alan, I respect your opinion(s) and feelings on the matter, whether I agree with them or not. Your view on the matter is/was just as important if not more important than the manufacturer's. In the furture I will chose to post any thoughts in the section dealing with historical accuracy issues as a NEWS section is not the best place IMO to post such discussions which probably disrupts the flow of the NEWS theme.~Gary

Moderators, Could this thread be moved to that section?
 
I have just 2 things to say so listen up this won't be hard. Alan get back to work on my vignette. Gary get back to work on the Irish guy. Have a nice day. :))))))))))))))))))))))))) lol alot.
 
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