Pegaso samurai -Edo period - opinions please

[The Riveteer]

First off - this is a great figure - no problems there, and I'm sure there are many out there that have been more than satisfied but being obsessive about these things something about it always bothered me and kept mine in the grey army. Anyone else feel a samurai depicted like this in that period is a bit anachronistic?
I'm not critising the sculptor - just hoping to open up a discussion.

Pegaso titled this Edo Period 1600 - 1867 which is what I thought. it seems to be based on the armour shown as an Edo period set in Trevor Absolon's book, which is very similar except for the kabuto ornamentation.

This looks to me like a late Edo display armour showing off the craftsman's art and incorporating nods back to various earlier styles.
It looks (IMHO) more like a status piece rather than a practical battle armour. As shown on the model it looks to me as having too many points that could catch a weapon and the robes look too voluminous to be safe to wear in battle.(not a problem is say the Heian period when warfare was more of a bow based thing)

O.K. so the questions are;-

1) If this is a late Edo Period armour, what is this guy doing charging into battle like he is?
I can't see this being worn at Osaka for instance and I don't think this level of protection would be being used in any of the later rebellion's etc - not impossible, just unlikely. The embossed out decoration would also weaken the do at a time when western firearms were becoming more prevalent.
He won't have seen The Last Samurai either.

2) If we assume this depiction is O.K. would he be wearing a Sashimono at this time? Going up against rebels or the Emperors westernised army would not need such identification, would it?

3) I've also read that the Haidate were used on horseback to prevent the kuzazuri slapping against the legs when riding - so why is he wearing them here on foot?. (A common depiction in many models) They certainly look cumbersome. Any comment on this either way welcome.

4) If those with a deeper knowledge than I have disagree with me on these points, can you give any conflicts post 1600 when you think this armour would seem appropriate

David

 

[Nap]

Hi David

Afraid I can't help but contact member yellowcat he is a expert

Agree it is a nice figure

Nap

 

[Mirofsoft]

Edo period is 250 years long, you realy need a specialist or look
https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&...biw=1282&bih=567&dpr=1.5#imgrc=R18VMPbChxgitM

And your will swimm in a pool of worried happiness

 

[myleftnut]

What’s interesting is I have had to this kit for years in my gray army. I notice Pegaso’s website does label it 1600+ which would be the Edo period but I’m positive when I bought it years ago it was labeled Azuchi–Momoyama period.

Edit. Huh. This is my new phone and I noticed I logged in with a username I use as a joke on other forums. I consider PF to be classy so excuse my crude sense of humor. LOL.

 

[Forté]

As for the pose, etc, if I remember rightly this was sculpted to work with this duelling samurai which is why it can look a little odd solo.


Plus of course a miniature is only as accurate as the sculptors/ art directors research and source material. Often liberties are taken to create a more dynamic piece, or source material doesn't necessarily match with others. But proving the accuracy without photographic evidence is difficult.

 

[The Riveteer]

Hi Forte

I always thought this figure was intended to go with the one you posted, leaving the Edo period piece as a stand alone piece.

I believe these two figures were released simultaneously and I have often seen them paired together as I think they were on the Pegaso site.

Hi Microsoft. That's my point. I have no issue with the armour depicted being Edo period only that I don't know of any battles other than the seige of Osaka likely to need full battle armour.
Osaka was the last great battle of the Sengoku/Edo transition and the armour on the Naginata samurai I posted (IMHO) looks too elaborate for 1615 , the Sengoku Jidai samurai by then having adopted a more streamlined and practical style.
The Edo period was largely a time of piece until the intervention of the west and modernisation of the Emperor's army. I can't see any reason for such elaborate armour to be needed in putting down isolated rebellions or to later fight the Westernised national army which would be easy to differentiate on a battlefield - that's why the sashimono seems redundant to me for this period.
I am pondering how to use this figure and it's appropriateness to other figures or specific battles. I would be happy to be proved that my concerns are unfounded, but would like to have some counter reference to refer to if that's the case.
David

 

[Forté]

Hi Forte

I always thought this figure was intended to go with the one you posted, leaving the Edo period piece as a stand alone piece.

View attachment 440287

I believe these two figures were released simultaneously and I have often seen them paired together as I think they were on the Pegaso site.

I think you're right on that. Cheers.

 

[Oda]

Been fascinated by the samurai for the best part of the last 25+ years now and have been studying their arms and armour for quite some time.Does this make me an expert?Absolutely not!But the subject is very interesting to me so I will add my 2 cents worth of opinion.The majority of surviving armours in collections are Edo period and most of the very well preserved ones are very late Edo period.Now what happened in those years is this: After the Tokugawa secured the land under their firm Shogunal grip they made it very clear that they would never allow civil war to tear up their country again.Legislation,very strict,regulating all aspects of life,was passed and things quieted down for the next 250 years.It was controversial to say the least to have a government run by the military Elit,manned by soldiers that were never allowed to go to war! Little by little armour lost its value,or its functional value at least and begun to be appraised solely on aesthetic terms.Late period samurai rediscovered the armour types of their ancestors in the 12-13th centuries ( a time covered by the great war tales-Gunkimono-which all the samurai loved to read) and started asking the armourers to incorporate ancient features on their functional 16th century armours or recreate ancient armours anew altogether.The Edo period witnessed thus a true Rennaisance in armour production (the armourers had to keep up with demand if they wanted to survive) with many bewildering designs taking form ranging from the barely functional to the entirely absurd.
Most modern sculptors base their research and their figures on surviving armour examples without really caring if the actual armours were functional or not.So,many of the Momoyama period armours we see in our hobby are in essence armours that have never been tested in battle.
Where Pegaso was different from the other manufacturers was that they employed Victor Konnov to sculpt all of their (successful) samurai.Konnov is a true student of samurai armour.I have never been able to locate the slightest mistake on any of his figures.Not only does he faithfully reproduce all details that are visible on the pictures of armours he is given -or has himself chosen- but he carefully and correctly reproduces all the elements of the armour that are not visible.This sets him apart from all other sculptors (the only one rivaling him on this albeit with many fewer releases on his back is Talant Soodanbekov).
In conclusion.Yes the armour depicted in this figure is probably Edo Period.But it is faithfully and correctly reproduced down to the slightest detail.

Oda.

PS: By the way,samurai would wear their haori or jinbaori in camp only if they were certain no action ws forthcoming.Fighting in jinbaori or haori overcoats would have been a useless nuisance.Probably never happened.

 

[The Riveteer]

Been fascinated by the samurai for the best part of the last 25+ years now and have been studying their arms and armour for quite some time.Does this make me an expert?Absolutely not!But the subject is very interesting to me
Oda.

PS: By the way,samurai would wear their haori or jinbaori in camp only if they were certain no action ws forthcoming.Fighting in jinbaori or haori overcoats would have been a useless nuisance.Probably never happened.

Hi Oda, your opinions always welcome. It's always nice to hear from another enthusiast.

Like you I have been interested in samurai, and for a longer period of about 40 years, but its not a competition and that does not mean I know any more about the subject than you do either. I spend a lot more time in the Napoleonic field and my lack of Japanese language severely restricts my resources for samurai topics. I consider myself to have more than the average man in the streets knowledge but I will never consider myself as even approaching expert status.

I didn't mean to cast doubt on the authenticity of Victor's sculpt - it's spot on and that's why I included a photo of a very similar armour to illustrate the point, I just have a problem with it being portrayed in such a dynamic battle pose, which I find jarring for this period. If the figure had been posed sitting down or standing in a nonchalant pose I would have had no problems with it at all.

I agree with your comment about Jinbaori. I have all of Victor's Pegaso figures but it bothers me that four of them, including the mounted figure, are depicted in Jinboari whilst fighting. I can live with that though, as camps could be broken into, famously by Takeda Shingen at Uesugi Kenshin's camp at Kawanakajima, and who is to say it didn't happen other times too? This is a similar problem I have with the Sashimono being used in the late Edo period - not impossible just unlikely.

Meanwhile, my Haidate used on foot query still goes unanswered.

David

 

[Oda]

David always glad to meet a fellow enthusiast. I think all of your remarks are spot on. As for the haidate I really do not know. I've always thought they were standard equipment at least for the above than average samurai. But that's only a guess.
By the way I hope that PF member Felix 'Yellowcat"picks up this conversation. He is really knowledgeable on all things samurai. I would like to hear what he has to say.

Oda.

 

[Banjer]

I used to tie my brain in knots over the authenticity of Samurai armour depicted in model form. Pegaso's arquebusier in full armour is the most obvious one. Now I just buy it and paint it if I like the look of it and pass on it if I don't.

I understand historical accuracy is paramount for some people but not for me. Glaringly obvious inaccuracies I avoid otherwise I go along with what is presented, correcting faults if I am able.

Each to their own.

Bill

 

[The Riveteer]

I used to tie my brain in knots over the authenticity of Samurai armour depicted in model form. Pegaso's arquebusier in full armour is the most obvious one. Now I just buy it and paint it if I like the look of it and pass on it if I don't.

I understand historical accuracy is paramount for some people but not for me. Glaringly obvious inaccuracies I avoid otherwise I go along with what is presented, correcting faults if I am able.

Each to their own.

Bill

Agreed Bill, we all have different levels of interest in the hobby. If I liked the look of a Medieval knight figure I wouldn't delve too much deeper than the odd Osprey book and i wouldn't expect most people to do much different with Samurai subjects.
Once you get the bug for a specific period however, you just get that much more obsessive.
I've seen some out and out Samurai howlers in various competitions over the years but I realize that they would have been someone else's prized possession. I wouldn't dream of criticizing that modeler's effort publicly, but if someone else asked why I didn't like it I would have to explain from an historically accurate viewpoint.
I mainly specialize in the two periods that interest me most and my own motivation for modelling those periods is to reflect them as accurately as I can. I have however, recently gone over to the dark-side myself and been tempted by the odd fantasy (or more accurately, mythical) figures, purely from their sculptural quality; so I can well understand the attraction of just wanting to paint something for it's aesthetically appeal alone.

David

 

[Oda]

Couldn't agree with you more David.

Oda.

 

[Alex]

Hehehehe I love this Pegaso figure and also do own every other great samurai figures made in 54, 75 and 90 mm in the last 20+ years. however, I was not very sure about the way he was holding his naginata. When painting this figure, I took some time to view a few videos of naginatajutsu ...and the result was that I had to flip it the other way around (as well as replace the whole naginata with a steel one).

 

[Blind Pew]

A top figure, I had one but I ebayed it in the end. To those that aren't aware - I can assure that this is not 90mm. I reckon easily 110mm. It was that that put me off really. A shame I suppose as it is a good figure.

 

[kevininpdx]

I was not very sure about the way he was holding his naginata.

I saw a tv show a while back where they demonstrated several samurai weapons and the guy using the naginata swung it this way. It was insane because he tested it on ballistics dummy and the top of the skull went flying like a frisbee. I’ll dig through YouTube to try and find the clip.

 

[Martin64]

most probably not the file you are looking for but quite impressive

 

[Blind Pew]

Wow! That is jaw-dropping. Notice that the blade was that sharp it made no noise as it hit? I bet you could shave with it.

 

[yellowcat]

Hi David,

My two cents to your questions:

Yoroi armour flourished during the Heian (794–1185) and Kamakura periods (1185–1333), gradually went out of fashion in the Nanbokuchō period (1336–92), and were revived in the Edo period, incorporating gorgeous ō-yoroi and dō-maru designs, became popular. When a united Japan entered the peaceful Edo period, samurai continued to use both plate and lamellar armour as a symbol of their status.
During the Edo period Daimyo and Samurai warriors now spent less on military campaigns, and more on embellishment of their swords and armor. This resulted in armor that was functional for military actions, but more ceremonial and ornate in nature. Lightweight, portable, and secret hidden armours became popular, since personal protection was still needed. Civil strife, duels, assassinations, and peasant revolts all required the use of armours such as the kusari katabira (chain armour jacket) and armoured sleeves, as well as other types of armour which could be worn under ordinary clothing. A new style of armour called tosei-gusoku (gusoku), which means modern armour, appeared.

Couple of gusoku armour from the Edo period.

From the Met Museum of Art

From the Tokyo Fuji Art Museum

Sashimono began to be used late in the Muromachi period, but really took off during the Azuchi-Momoyama period, from the 1570’s onward. Sashimono could serve different purposes depending on the wearer.

Personal sashimono were used to indicate the presence of a particular individual warrior (and his retinue) on the battlefield. These may have been worn by the individual himself, and/or carried by attendants and other close family members. These sashimono most likely carried the individual’s kamon, or heraldic badge.

Unit sashimono, or ban-sashimono, indicated a particular unit. Most famously, messenger units or Tsukai-ban might have a distinctive sashimono, such as the centipede associated with the Takeda, or the Tokugawa ‘伍’ character. They may have also been used for other units.

Sashimono may also have been used to indicate rank. This was the case for Tokugawa Shogunate officials in the Edo period and may have been a continuation and formalisation of earlier practice. These sashimono may have been similar to the unit sashimono (if any) with the addition of an extra mark, such as a bar, to differentiate it.

In general, the small flag is worn by ashigaru or samurai within a unit. Medium sized flags are worn by the Gashira (unit leader) samurai or samurai who need to be clearly identified (officers, commanders, etc). The large clan flags would typically be carried or fixed in the hatadai (Banner Floor Stand) to mark troop rally points or camps.

Daimyo, if they were to go into battle, often immediately removed Jinbaori and attached to the armor of Sashimono.

Here are some pictures of an unique umbrella sashimono from Myochin School, signed by Myochin Munehisa. Edo period.

Haidate, or thigh guards are a late occurrence in Japanese armour, not really arriving on the scene until around the thirteenth century. As the horseback to foot combat styles evolved, these thigh guards started to feature new designs towards the mid-Muromachi Period. It was a time when the samurai started fighting more on foot rather than on horseback.
Samurai warriors needed a way to protect their thighs when mounted but something that could be easily discarded while on foot.

Four basic styles of Haidate:

Etchu Haidate – Haidate covered with only a sparse grid of mail and splints
Hodo Haidate – Haidate that have the lower part of the armored portion divided into pendant sections
Kusari Haidate – A mail and plate haidate
Oda Haidate – Haidate of mail, with ikeda and knee plates resembling those at the elbow of oda gote

Most samurai claimed that the haidate was added weight and refused to wear them while on foot. Eventually, their Daimyo won the argument when the amount of thigh wounds increased. It wasn’t long until the haidate became a permanent part of a samurai’s armor set. To add the necessary protection, the haidate, came into full production and use.

Here is a video from the Tokyo National Museum "An inside look at Japanese armour".
Please fast forward to 2:13 to view the Haidate/ Thigh Guards.




The Pegaso Samurai figure is likely from the Edo period with the armour he wore to show off his status.


Regarding the figure there is doubt the way he was holding his naginata with the blade down. Here are couples of videos showing the same techniques that are executed.

For the first video please fast forward to 1:16. The second video shows the technique and style holding the naginata with the blade down in the ready stance position.

 

[Nap]

Very interesting thread , loads of information in reply to the questions

Such a specialised subject so good to have yellowcat's input

Always learning

Nap