Pegaso / White metal re-casts?

[Banjer]

Some time ago I bought a couple of 90mm figures on the bay. UK seller. They arrived in brown cardboard cartons with a poor quality image on them. The quality is poor so I suspect knock offs. however, they are white metal and I have always associated re-casts with resin. Do white metal recasts exist? I admit I know very little about this low life enterprise.

Bill

 

[yellowcat]

Some time ago I bought a couple of 90mm figures on the bay. UK seller. They arrived in brown cardboard cartons with a poor quality image on them. The quality is poor so I suspect knock offs. however, they are white metal and I have always associated re-casts with resin. Do white metal recasts exist? I admit I know very little about this low life enterprise.

Bill

Hi Bill,
White metal recasts do exist and they are not cheap too. Here are just a few and some are sold as painted too. The pictures are from their listings. Just be aware and be careful. Do not buy any original white metal kit unless the listings show the casting parts pictures just to avoid any lead disease issues.

 

[sd0324]

 

[akaryu]

Metal recasts do exist indeed, a minority compared to the vast amount flooding a site like eBay.

I'm afraid the only possible protection against this plague is information and study, a lot of study, knowing what that elusive extremely rare figure you've been looking for really looked like.

Looking for a number of obvious red flags, the same we use against phishing emails.

Was it cast originally in metal or resin and by whom?

How did the packing looked like, was there an info sheet, who was the sculptor and the manufacturer? What was the original price

Is the legit company still in business, have their rights been sold, where were they based and so on?

How comes that piece of pure modeller's delight produced in the UK or anywhere else in the western world, suddenly turns up as an incredible bargain in a shoddy cardboard box in China, for instance?

My apologies for not sounding woke or pc, but scammers and remasters don't fit in my world!

Pierre


BTW The bright blue-laced PM recast with its oversized agricultural tool looks hilarious!

 

[yellowcat]

Metal recasts do exist indeed, a minority compared to the vast amount flooding a site like eBay.

I'm afraid the only possible protection against this plague is information and study, a lot of study, knowing what that elusive extremely rare figure you've been looking for really looked like.

Looking for a number of obvious red flags, the same we use against phishing emails.

Was it cast originally in metal or resin and by whom?

How did the packing looked like, was there an info sheet, who was the sculptor and the manufacturer? What was the original price

Is the legit company still in business, have their rights been sold, where were they based and so on?

How comes that piece of pure modeller's delight produced in the UK or anywhere else in the western world, suddenly turns up as an incredible bargain in a shoddy cardboard box in China, for instance?

My apologies for not sounding woke or pc, but scammers and remasters don't fit in my world!

Pierre


BTW The bright blue-laced PM recast with its oversized agricultural tool looks hilarious!

Excellent insight on recast kits. Some of the recasters disguise as UK sellers but kits are posted from China. I have seen recast kits from different countries.
Here are some recast kits that are more expensive than the originals. So buyer beware.

 

[theBaron]

I have seen white metal recasts of resin figures, and resin recasts of white metal figures. You really have to educate yourself, if you want to avoid pirate copies.

Prost!
Brad

 

[akaryu]

Education and information is the key and the forum certainly has its importance there.

While an awkward or wrong description can be caused by AI translation, there are telltale red flags in a lot of eBay ads, such as an absence of the original box, maker or firm not indicated and no pictures of the parts.

Genuine Post Militaire kits are mostly shown with a photo of all the parts and the black wrap used by PM around its cardboard boxes.

We, the old geezers, are the lucky ones, having grown in the hobby with magazines such as Military Modelling, with gatherings like Euromilitaire and real shops like Tom Kerridge's, Lyn Sangster's, Jean Hoyos' Heaumerie and others.
It might be more difficult for the newcomers to the hobby to distinguish the fake ones.

Good luck to all,

Pierre

 

[yellowcat]

Regarding genuine Poste Militaire kits, not all PM kits came with black wrap around their cardboard boxes.
PM ceased production in 2004. Their kit boxes have seen changed over their production years. Here are pictures of the kit boxes over their production years. From the early square black box on the left to the rectangular white cardboard box to the right and the brown box with black wrap in the middle. I have also seen some really earlier ones before the black square ones which only came with just a cardboard box.

 

[akaryu]

Oh yes Felix, I forgot about the early black boxes, while I still have Ray's first mounted samurai in its black box, bought at Euromilitaire in the eighties.

But yours is the kind of information needed to avoid falling in the remasters trap.

cheers,

Pierre

 

[yellowcat]

Oh yes Felix, I forgot about the early black boxes, while I still have Ray's first mounted samurai in its black box, bought at Euromilitaire in the eighties.

But yours is the kind of information needed to avoid falling in the remasters trap.

cheers,

Pierre

........And I forgot the American Indian busts, the Samurai accessories series and the yew wood bases with white metal frames which were in plain brown cardboard boxes.

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys

It’s a great subject that Banjer has raised , recasting is as well we know the bane of all manufacturers .

The responses from all are great help ...it’s all about educating with the information

The forum will not tolerate any recast of course

Great information on the boxes as well from Yellowcat

Following with interest

Nap

 

[Blind Pew]

All of the above is all valid information and useful in the fight against these parasites. The only stumbling block is that down the years I've got rid of original boxes at times, purely to save space. I'd say to any newcomer, if you are in doubt, don't hesitate to ask on here and use our experience - people would be happy to assist.

 

[Redcap]

Some very interesting points have been raised on this topic and equally important are the constructive and helpful contributions. I think however that the inevitable and unavoidable fact of life is that this scourge upon our hobby is here to stay and won't be going away. I think as well that there is a 'perfect storm' situation at the moment of previously long unavailable kits now suddenly 're-appearing' in China where someone has clearly obtained an original copy, ever cheaper methods for the re-casters to make and then supply them at ludicrously and commercially unsustainable low prices (free post sponsored by the China government helps facilitate this) and of course, ever squeezed budgets in a cost of living crisis are all contributory factors to purchasing decisions. Whilst some modelers in the hobby and especially among those who are retired tend to have healthy disposable income levels, many do not and for many others and especially for those with families, each purchase decision has to be balanced against other (essential) expenditure and costs. As such, temptation is clear but not condoned.

Sites like this provide much needed guidance and assistance on these matters and no-one has a monopoly on knowledge or awareness as this thread identifies having been raised by long standing and respected PF member Bill. Given that post C19 we have also seen a significant number of modelers return to the fold following a lengthy absence, often decades, from the hobby in 'born again biker' style, then I think it important as well that we don't immediately pounce upon, castigate or even ostracise those asking such a question as this as the entire modelling world has moved on so much in the past 10-20 years as to be unrecognizable to most of them. Indeed, recasting is one such relatively recent phenomena since they were last in the hobby and which has seen this practice morph in the last 15 or so years from one or two individuals monopolising that demand and supply to a now almost industrialised scale in, let's be honest, predominantly China and Russia which enjoys zero copyright protections. Those of us who are lifelong members of the hobby and absent any lengthy breaks for it, we have seen this problem develop over the years and so, we are fully aware of what is involved but many more casual or recent modelers and painters are not and so, they may well buy these products absent an informed awareness and understanding of what is involved.

Those of us who have been lifelong members of this hobby know many manufacturers personally (business and socially) and so, we also know the work, investment and passion which goes into making these fantastic kits and to a standard (and range of subjects) almost unimaginable just a few short years ago. We must continue to support them. Were I to invest possibly 100+ painting hours into something like these intricate 90mm mounted samurais cited as examples here, then why I or indeed anyone else would want to save about 30 -40 quid - most genuine and original kits can be had even second hand for very reasonable prices at shows and in the 'buy/sell section of this very site - only to then spend possibly half as many hours again trying to clean up or replace missing / crap detail and poor cast QC and most likely forlornly, is beyond me. Maybe those who (knowingly) buy them would never have bought the original piece anyway and so I have no idea as to what financial impact this whole issue has (or is having) upon the hobby and especially the producers? That said, the plethora and abundance of new releases by established and new figure producers alike tends to suggest that the vast majority of people are still buying the genuine product and supporting the hobby. Long may that continue!

Gary

 

[sd0324]

Most here know the difference but newcomers to the hobby may not. Gary's post is spot on. Some are so concerned it once quashed a sale I had on a nice little Kirin Royal Marines in the Falklands kit. Got accused of selling a recast when it was original. Rare kit too. It was funny/insulting.

Steve

 

[Martin64]

Recasts - a topic that can produce long threads. As far as I know the first recasts of figures were made from white metal and occured to become a problem with flat tin figures. These were not made in the today much blamed Eastern countries but by some people with homespun facilities. Today recasts are produced as a kind of second industry if you look at resin copies. I know from a friend who produced his own line of miniatures that the casting process for white metal requires an intermediate master figure from very hard metal that withstands the pressure to finally make the rubber molds for the production of the copies. That is different to the resin figures and might be the reason for the poorer quality of the white metal recasts as these don't have the intermediate master when they copy directly from the kit parts. All other aspects of this topic have already been brought up IMHO. Cheers Martin

 

[Banjer]

Thank you everyone for the constructive and informative answers. I would point out that I am not a novice, I have been a model maker since the 1950's and a figure modeller since the early seventies. On closer inspection the detail on my figures is excellent but the fit of the parts is awful. The seller is well respected on eBay and I don't suspect him of fraud. It is unfortunate that if these kits are original and Pegaso quality has dropped to this level.

My question about white metal recasts has been comprehensively answered by some very knowledgeable people and as Martin said much easier done in resin.

Bill

 

[Redcap]

QUOTE - It is unfortunate that if these kits are original and Pegaso quality has dropped to this level.

From first hand experience, IT HAS and especially so on some of their older (metal) kits where the moulds have clearly deteriorated and worn badly.

Gary

 

[elgreco]

Some time ago I bought a couple of 90mm figures on the bay. UK seller. They arrived in brown cardboard cartons with a poor quality image on them. The quality is poor so I suspect knock offs. however, they are white metal and I have always associated re-casts with resin. Do white metal recasts exist? I admit I know very little about this low life enterprise.

Bill

You should report them on Ebay and return the models as counterfeits to get your money back if you're still in the "Return" time window. Don't give them the satisfaction and you have no idea what that "white metal" contains....

 

[Banjer]

You should report them on Ebay and return the models as counterfeits to get your money back if you're still in the "Return" time window. Don't give them the satisfaction and you have no idea what that "white metal" contains....

Thank you for the reply. If you look at my other comment I now feel they are poorly cast originals.

My question did gain some very interesting responses however.

Bill

 

[Alex]

Hi

Do you have some pictures of parts of your kits to share ? I have tons of Pegaso and I will be able to tell you if yours are original or not

cheers

Alex