Forté
A Fixture
Precisely why I am happy to save and buy official products that even think about recasts.
ARE HIGH FIGURE PRICES AN OPEN INVITATION TO RE-CASTERS?
- Thread starter NeilW
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Precisely why I am happy to save and buy official products that even think about recasts.
Pegaso sale of classics is working because 1) they are offering free shipping (is and was very expensive if you were not in Europe) 2) current asking price is the same as I was paying as a dealer for them in the past
but even at full retail price, 90 mm figures for example were not that expensive at all if you consider everything involved
and this 3K 200mm figure painted by Stan is not that expensive either. You have to pay the master, the casting and the painter himself. Before being a painter of miniatures myself (always worked on canvas before that), I did collect figures painted in Russia and I have almost 200 of them. The best one cost me almost 1000$ back in the day and it is a N. Miniatura 54 mm mounted renaissance knight with a banner (Tatiana's studio). This same figure would be worth at least 2 if not 3x more today and you know what : it would still be money well spent from a collectors point of view. People are buying canvases with random dots of paints for much more money and nobody is saying anything about how much did the paint cost or the canvas itself... works like these miniatures are real works of art and well worth the asking price.
but even at full retail price, 90 mm figures for example were not that expensive at all if you consider everything involved
and this 3K 200mm figure painted by Stan is not that expensive either. You have to pay the master, the casting and the painter himself. Before being a painter of miniatures myself (always worked on canvas before that), I did collect figures painted in Russia and I have almost 200 of them. The best one cost me almost 1000$ back in the day and it is a N. Miniatura 54 mm mounted renaissance knight with a banner (Tatiana's studio). This same figure would be worth at least 2 if not 3x more today and you know what : it would still be money well spent from a collectors point of view. People are buying canvases with random dots of paints for much more money and nobody is saying anything about how much did the paint cost or the canvas itself... works like these miniatures are real works of art and well worth the asking price.
kevininpdx
Well-Known Member
Well said Alex. I wouldn’t buy it but I wouldn’t scoff at anyone that would. That thing isn’t made on an assembly line. The cost per man hour still seems small for a work of art.
I’m glad Tommy’s War posted. You read that right. 100 copies. Not 1000, 10000 or 100000. These things cost what they cost and they’re worth it. I respect the OPs position but it doesn’t sound like a dramatic lowering of price would work and I don’t see any producers taking that risk.
I’m glad Tommy’s War posted. You read that right. 100 copies. Not 1000, 10000 or 100000. These things cost what they cost and they’re worth it. I respect the OPs position but it doesn’t sound like a dramatic lowering of price would work and I don’t see any producers taking that risk.
MrBMB
A Fixture
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,505
Firstly NO to recast 
For me the price depends on how good the sculpt is and how good the cast/design of build is. What I mean is I will pay more for a better 1/35 or 1/16 figure if it is made/designed well. I don't really want to spend most of my time cleaning up seam lines and mismatched joins just to get the primer down. As an example I will pay more for a Alpine or Evolution figure than say the recently older Legend figures. Another would be I don't want to pay top price that Andrea asks for their new figures as I don't believe "yet" that the quality ( poor cast, mold lines) match the asking price. When I build a figure like the PMC 1/9 MG42 Rosengrant figure or the old S&T figures or Kaz/Model Cellar 1/9 German I just thought "wow" the design of those figures and how the parts went together were so impressive as I have shown in some of my videos. Some of the new busts and figures coming out I look at in hand and think geez!! I don't think there is really any clean up to do before the primer goes down. What I don't understand is when new figures come out and the design/construction/fit is poor before you even get into how nice the cast is.
So same sculpted figure, but one company designs the parts like PMC, S&T or Model Cellar and the other gives me the quality of Andrea, older Airborne Miniatures or the older Legend Figures. I would say I would pay 10-30% more for the first three companies even though the actual sculpt looks the same.
So for me if a figure company does good work and in some cases I can see that they are trying to improve with every new kit they make, I will gladly pay more ( within reason of course) or be a repeat customer.
For me the price depends on how good the sculpt is and how good the cast/design of build is. What I mean is I will pay more for a better 1/35 or 1/16 figure if it is made/designed well. I don't really want to spend most of my time cleaning up seam lines and mismatched joins just to get the primer down. As an example I will pay more for a Alpine or Evolution figure than say the recently older Legend figures. Another would be I don't want to pay top price that Andrea asks for their new figures as I don't believe "yet" that the quality ( poor cast, mold lines) match the asking price. When I build a figure like the PMC 1/9 MG42 Rosengrant figure or the old S&T figures or Kaz/Model Cellar 1/9 German I just thought "wow" the design of those figures and how the parts went together were so impressive as I have shown in some of my videos. Some of the new busts and figures coming out I look at in hand and think geez!! I don't think there is really any clean up to do before the primer goes down. What I don't understand is when new figures come out and the design/construction/fit is poor before you even get into how nice the cast is.
So same sculpted figure, but one company designs the parts like PMC, S&T or Model Cellar and the other gives me the quality of Andrea, older Airborne Miniatures or the older Legend Figures. I would say I would pay 10-30% more for the first three companies even though the actual sculpt looks the same.
So for me if a figure company does good work and in some cases I can see that they are trying to improve with every new kit they make, I will gladly pay more ( within reason of course) or be a repeat customer.
Ned Ricks
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 412
Whew! Deep scholastic economics and marketing theory meet hobby bench.
Does anyone here know the life span of a figures/bust mold? I do not. In the plastic injection side of the hobby world, one often sees the same mold sold and resold for re-boxing with new decals and such. Eventually, the mold wear out and are overtaken by better technology. Is the same true for figures/busts, I wonder?
From an enjoyment perspective (the hobby is only that for me, rather than a business), I have consciously moved toward purchasing products that are of better quality. Fewer of better is my calculus rather than many of mediocre. I haven't the time or inclination to deal with poorly engineered figures or the results of badly made molds. If a bust or figure is well sculpted and of a subject I like (at the moment) I buy it -- hence the GA, I will pay market price.
John Ruskin: "
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do."
Does anyone here know the life span of a figures/bust mold? I do not. In the plastic injection side of the hobby world, one often sees the same mold sold and resold for re-boxing with new decals and such. Eventually, the mold wear out and are overtaken by better technology. Is the same true for figures/busts, I wonder?
From an enjoyment perspective (the hobby is only that for me, rather than a business), I have consciously moved toward purchasing products that are of better quality. Fewer of better is my calculus rather than many of mediocre. I haven't the time or inclination to deal with poorly engineered figures or the results of badly made molds. If a bust or figure is well sculpted and of a subject I like (at the moment) I buy it -- hence the GA, I will pay market price.
John Ruskin: "
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do."
valiant
A Fixture
As a rule of thumb, silicone moulds for resin and some metal figures are usually good for 20-30 casts, dependant on complexity. A manufacturer will usually (but not always) keep the first cast as a new master, from which more moulds can be made. A complex cavity, with undercuts, heavy detail, etc will wear quickly, due to damage on de moulding, so would need replacing quickly. This damage can be limited by good mouldmaking, thoughtful seaming and correct mould engineering, sadly not always evident. Injection moulds for polystyrene are usually made from steel, so therefore have a longer lifespan. However, these still wear out and lead to "flashing" on seams. Again, the wear is usually down to the complexity of the mould and the dificulties of extracting the item from the mould...
Tecumsea
PlanetFigure Supporter
This is not a new subject and I am appending below a response to a similar question given (From the Heart) by Luca at Pegaso in 2012.
Pegaso models response to pricing criticism
Dear Jacques
It is very easy to do calculation in the pocket of other people...right?
You are not the FIRST...you'll not be the LEAST.
I answerd to the same calculations (your calculations) several years ago in another American Forum.
Peple didn't trust me.
Now I'll show you again the costs to produce one 54mm "Elite Series" figure ok?
(I'll put you only the minimum costs)
Historician (researches): minimum 150 euros
Sculptor= minimum 780 euros
Painter= minimum 180 euros
Caster= 3 euros
Box = 1,50 euros
Various costs (salaryies, electricity, phone, advertisings...tc...etc...) = 6% = 1.59 euros
Think that we cast (as first order) 400 figures.
Costs:
150 : 400 = 0.375
780 : 400 = 1.95
180 : 400 = 0.45
cast = 3.00
Box = 1.50
Various = 1.59
Total = 8.865 Euros for ONE figure
Try to consider that we have figures that sell 400-500 during one year and other figure (successfull figures) that sell no more than 800-900 during one year.
Distributors (the 80% of our market) don't accept a discount being less than 59%.
It means we sell a 54mm "Elite Series" to a Distributor at 10.87 euros.
It means we get 2.004 on EACH figure.
It means that, speking about a succesfull model, at the end of ONE YEARr we get a net incoming of no more than 1803 euros. Speaking about an unsuccesfull figure we don't get more than 1082 euros net incoming.
These are official dates of Pegaso. Anyone can come here in Italy to give a look at ouur Administrative Books!
Pegaso is an Official Public Society...Srl in Italian fiscal language.
As least information I tell you that we sell to shops (14% of our market..the rest is directly to Modelers) at 50% discount.
It means that we sell to shops at 13.25 euros and they sell you at 26.50 euros.
BOYS...!!!! It is evident to me that the most of you have a wrong idea about how many money Producers get by you!
The most of Modelers are convinced that Producers sell THOUSANDS of figures for each new code we produce...
Well, let me to tell you something....YOU ARE WRONG!
We sell HUNDREDS not THOUSANDS of figures....ok?
The most sold figures of Pegaso in 13 years are:
90-004 = 3174 figures
75-009 = 2976 figures
At the moment, the nearest figure is the 54-025 (1995 year) that reached 1257 figures sold.
The last (I will not mention it as a form of respect for the sculptor) didn't reach the 124 number in 10 years!
Succesfull figures are no more than the 12% of our catalogue.
Normal figures are no more than the 57% of our catalogue.
Unsuccesfull figures are the rest.
Many Friends of mine told me several times: don't show to Modelers your calculations...they will never trust you!
Well....I decided for the second time to show you what is it the reality of a successfull Historical Figures producer (and Pegaso is leading the market!).
Now you may TRUST me or not....this is your own choice.
About E-Bay:
I contacted them SEVERAL times.
They NEVER answered me.
I call them a LEGALIZED MAFIA OF ILLEGAL ACTS!
They don't care about small companies (I understand them...we have not the sufficent power!).
Furthermore they give to people the possibility to sell being anonimous......so we cannot attack such peple.
The result?
CRIMINALS use E-Bay.
E-Bay get a lot of money.
We can do NOTHING!
Trust me or not BUT...THIS S THE TRUTH!
I'll not write more about the argument.
Luca Marchetti (in love with Historical Figures)
Pegaso models response to pricing criticism
Dear Jacques
It is very easy to do calculation in the pocket of other people...right?
You are not the FIRST...you'll not be the LEAST.
I answerd to the same calculations (your calculations) several years ago in another American Forum.
Peple didn't trust me.
Now I'll show you again the costs to produce one 54mm "Elite Series" figure ok?
(I'll put you only the minimum costs)
Historician (researches): minimum 150 euros
Sculptor= minimum 780 euros
Painter= minimum 180 euros
Caster= 3 euros
Box = 1,50 euros
Various costs (salaryies, electricity, phone, advertisings...tc...etc...) = 6% = 1.59 euros
Think that we cast (as first order) 400 figures.
Costs:
150 : 400 = 0.375
780 : 400 = 1.95
180 : 400 = 0.45
cast = 3.00
Box = 1.50
Various = 1.59
Total = 8.865 Euros for ONE figure
Try to consider that we have figures that sell 400-500 during one year and other figure (successfull figures) that sell no more than 800-900 during one year.
Distributors (the 80% of our market) don't accept a discount being less than 59%.
It means we sell a 54mm "Elite Series" to a Distributor at 10.87 euros.
It means we get 2.004 on EACH figure.
It means that, speking about a succesfull model, at the end of ONE YEARr we get a net incoming of no more than 1803 euros. Speaking about an unsuccesfull figure we don't get more than 1082 euros net incoming.
These are official dates of Pegaso. Anyone can come here in Italy to give a look at ouur Administrative Books!
Pegaso is an Official Public Society...Srl in Italian fiscal language.
As least information I tell you that we sell to shops (14% of our market..the rest is directly to Modelers) at 50% discount.
It means that we sell to shops at 13.25 euros and they sell you at 26.50 euros.
BOYS...!!!! It is evident to me that the most of you have a wrong idea about how many money Producers get by you!
The most of Modelers are convinced that Producers sell THOUSANDS of figures for each new code we produce...
Well, let me to tell you something....YOU ARE WRONG!
We sell HUNDREDS not THOUSANDS of figures....ok?
The most sold figures of Pegaso in 13 years are:
90-004 = 3174 figures
75-009 = 2976 figures
At the moment, the nearest figure is the 54-025 (1995 year) that reached 1257 figures sold.
The last (I will not mention it as a form of respect for the sculptor) didn't reach the 124 number in 10 years!
Succesfull figures are no more than the 12% of our catalogue.
Normal figures are no more than the 57% of our catalogue.
Unsuccesfull figures are the rest.
Many Friends of mine told me several times: don't show to Modelers your calculations...they will never trust you!
Well....I decided for the second time to show you what is it the reality of a successfull Historical Figures producer (and Pegaso is leading the market!).
Now you may TRUST me or not....this is your own choice.
About E-Bay:
I contacted them SEVERAL times.
They NEVER answered me.
I call them a LEGALIZED MAFIA OF ILLEGAL ACTS!
They don't care about small companies (I understand them...we have not the sufficent power!).
Furthermore they give to people the possibility to sell being anonimous......so we cannot attack such peple.
The result?
CRIMINALS use E-Bay.
E-Bay get a lot of money.
We can do NOTHING!
Trust me or not BUT...THIS S THE TRUTH!
I'll not write more about the argument.
Luca Marchetti (in love with Historical Figures)
Tecumsea
PlanetFigure Supporter
Here is a copy of a spreadsheet I produced after a conversation with another Manufacturer in 2015-as you can see from this and the above this is a high risk business and no-one is in it for the money (Probably true of anything in the Arts). All of the producers I have ever met in this hobby do it for the love of the Hobby and if they can make a small income for the time and effort they put in good luck to them and they deserve our support 100%. I think for some just travelling to shows here and abroad and the interface between themselves and fellow enthusiasts is enough. No doubt some of the figures below have altered over the past 4 years however I think they are still illustrative of the premise that it is not a pathway to riches.
Keith
Figure Making Costs Based on 30 per mould
Excludes show costs and assumes that casting is in house
Also assumes no discount to trade
Master 710
Mould (1) 125
Resin 90
3x30
Boxes 30 1x30
Ref Material 30
Boxart 300
Total 1285
Breakeven @ £35 1285 Need to sell 36.7
Breakeven @ £40 1285 Need to sell 32.1
Mould (2) 125
Resin 90 3x30
Boxes 30 1x30
Total 245
Breakeven @ £35 245 Need to sell 7
Breakeven @ £40 245 Need to sell 6
Based on above at £35 last 16 of 60 sold are all profit G.P. £560
Based on above at £40 last 22 of 60 sold are all profit G.P. £880
Based on producing one figure per month and assuming average sales of 60 at £40 on each GP for the year would be £880x12=£10560*
assumes all casting is in house
excludes cost of shows, stand, travel and accommodation.
*If 50% of sales are to trade at a discount of 40% the GP reduces to £10560-£2460=£8100
Keith
Figure Making Costs Based on 30 per mould
Excludes show costs and assumes that casting is in house
Also assumes no discount to trade
Master 710
Mould (1) 125
Resin 90
3x30
Boxes 30 1x30
Ref Material 30
Boxart 300
Total 1285
Breakeven @ £35 1285 Need to sell 36.7
Breakeven @ £40 1285 Need to sell 32.1
Mould (2) 125
Resin 90 3x30
Boxes 30 1x30
Total 245
Breakeven @ £35 245 Need to sell 7
Breakeven @ £40 245 Need to sell 6
Based on above at £35 last 16 of 60 sold are all profit G.P. £560
Based on above at £40 last 22 of 60 sold are all profit G.P. £880
Based on producing one figure per month and assuming average sales of 60 at £40 on each GP for the year would be £880x12=£10560*
assumes all casting is in house
excludes cost of shows, stand, travel and accommodation.
*If 50% of sales are to trade at a discount of 40% the GP reduces to £10560-£2460=£8100
Hi Guys
Been watching this thread and some interesting comments I know a fair few guys who run companies and mostly all have been affected various things relating to these theiving scum
Will we ever stop recasters ...NO ...keep being vocal ....answer is simple:
Save up and buy originals only ...support the guys that work so hard and often with very minimal bonus ie: profit
So in answer to Neil's question ...yes the original price does have an effect ...a very negative one with many "new" companies getting hit and bowing out
THANK YOU to the MANUFACTURERS for their comments here
Nap
Been watching this thread and some interesting comments I know a fair few guys who run companies and mostly all have been affected various things relating to these theiving scum
Will we ever stop recasters ...NO ...keep being vocal ....answer is simple:
Save up and buy originals only ...support the guys that work so hard and often with very minimal bonus ie: profit
So in answer to Neil's question ...yes the original price does have an effect ...a very negative one with many "new" companies getting hit and bowing out
THANK YOU to the MANUFACTURERS for their comments here
Nap
Tecumsea
PlanetFigure Supporter
I went through my Manufactures Book Mark pages on the computer a few days ago-It was amazing how many companies have disappeared on the past 4-5 years. Conversely so many new ones have also appeared, just shows how fluid the market really is.
Keith
Keith
I have a buddy who makes ship model fittings, hand made scale rope, and high quality ship model kits. He is a one man operation and puts in a hell of a lot of work. New kits take a long time to design and produce. They’re copyrighted, but that means nothing in several countries. His kits have been copied exactly and sold on eBay for a fraction of the cost. Sometimes the instructions aren’t even changed. It has almost caused him to throw in the towel several times. It is a major problem in the ship model community. I personally would rather support the guys who I would like to consider friends, than pirates. I’d prefer to do without, than try to save a few dollars or euros or pounds (which I don’t have many to spare). Something for nothing is worth nothing, in a way that sort of applies.
Kurt
Kurt
Pure inflation calculator 1£ 1973 = 12,19 £ today
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
A 75mm Ray Lamb/Hinchliffe was at 2.50£ so = 30,475£ in 2019
But for c. same size of market ( buyers ) there was 60 makers, today 1000 so almost each one having far less selling potential
No expensive "Box Art" in 1973, no patreon, no kickstarter . Today lot of "producers" casting 20 to 50 pieces only in a joyous nearly amateur way ( quality of mould can not resist more than 20/50 casting ) Amateur e-commerce for many ( no size, no descrition even no price, facebook ... all dissuasives ways to consider them as reliable sellers ) no shops, sending costs, customs ... Perhaps 50 of them present on a show ( in 1973, 50 meant almost every makers were attending )
Exception; a great Wargames and figurines manufacturer of today selling in massives quantities to childrens with shops everywhere on the planet, they are so many eagers buyers, the demand is so great that they can profit and ask huge prices
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
A 75mm Ray Lamb/Hinchliffe was at 2.50£ so = 30,475£ in 2019
But for c. same size of market ( buyers ) there was 60 makers, today 1000 so almost each one having far less selling potential
No expensive "Box Art" in 1973, no patreon, no kickstarter . Today lot of "producers" casting 20 to 50 pieces only in a joyous nearly amateur way ( quality of mould can not resist more than 20/50 casting ) Amateur e-commerce for many ( no size, no descrition even no price, facebook ... all dissuasives ways to consider them as reliable sellers ) no shops, sending costs, customs ... Perhaps 50 of them present on a show ( in 1973, 50 meant almost every makers were attending )
Exception; a great Wargames and figurines manufacturer of today selling in massives quantities to childrens with shops everywhere on the planet, they are so many eagers buyers, the demand is so great that they can profit and ask huge prices
Ferris
A Fixture
I’ve been thinking about how to deal with recasting and have an idea how producers can deal with the problem. I don’t want to share it on an open forum though. Nothing illegal, I just don’t want to spoil things if it may be in use already.
If a producer is interested, send me a PM.
Adrian
If a producer is interested, send me a PM.
Adrian
Forté
A Fixture
I speak with a fair few so am very interested (plus I despise recasting and people who support it).
NeilW
A Fixture
As the person who (innocently) asked the question in the first place, may I simply re-state my proposition that pirate re-casters will always capitalise on the hard work done by originators (such is the nature of people). Thus, as their costs will inevitably be lower, then, yes, high prices (whether justified or not) do indeed leave space for re-casters.
This does NOT mean that I endorse or support the practice.
My proposition is:
That there is a market for such lower cost figures is borne out by their being offered for sale (eBay, AliXpress etc). Thus, I maintain that there is demand which is untapped by legit manufacturers as their prices are above what these buyers are able, or willing, to pay (I suspect that demand is price elastic). This actually leads to an argument that the actual loss to legit manufacturers is mitigated as many such buyers wouldn't/couldn't buy their 'full-price; products anyway.
Otherwise, I contend that manufacturers have the option of selling fewer units at relatively higher/premium prices (ie set up, overhead etc costs are absorbed over fewer figures), or selling more units at lower prices (ie overheads spread over more figures). Many readers will be familiar with the concepts of fixed/variable/marginal costs, break-even, economies of scale and the profit/skimming vs volume/penetration pricing strategies etc that underpin this argument.
One option (albeit unpalatable to many) would be to follow the lead of Apple, Dyson, Nike and other premium brands by maintaining R&D/marketing in the home country but off-shoring production/distribution etc to low cost countries... perhaps in Eastern Europe... or even China (they seem to know how to cast figs).
None of this precludes the various legal/moral, financial (thanks Keith and others for costings), strategic, scale, market and other counter arguments- all of which (with some reservations) I acknowledge.
In the meantime, we must wait and see whether Adrian's idea is workable and doesn't add too much more extra cost (but expect some clever person to find a way around it).
Neil
BTW: no, even 'if it's so easy', my age, health and inclination mean that I will not be setting up in business and making myself a millionaire overnight
This does NOT mean that I endorse or support the practice.
My proposition is:
That there is a market for such lower cost figures is borne out by their being offered for sale (eBay, AliXpress etc). Thus, I maintain that there is demand which is untapped by legit manufacturers as their prices are above what these buyers are able, or willing, to pay (I suspect that demand is price elastic). This actually leads to an argument that the actual loss to legit manufacturers is mitigated as many such buyers wouldn't/couldn't buy their 'full-price; products anyway.
Otherwise, I contend that manufacturers have the option of selling fewer units at relatively higher/premium prices (ie set up, overhead etc costs are absorbed over fewer figures), or selling more units at lower prices (ie overheads spread over more figures). Many readers will be familiar with the concepts of fixed/variable/marginal costs, break-even, economies of scale and the profit/skimming vs volume/penetration pricing strategies etc that underpin this argument.
One option (albeit unpalatable to many) would be to follow the lead of Apple, Dyson, Nike and other premium brands by maintaining R&D/marketing in the home country but off-shoring production/distribution etc to low cost countries... perhaps in Eastern Europe... or even China (they seem to know how to cast figs).
None of this precludes the various legal/moral, financial (thanks Keith and others for costings), strategic, scale, market and other counter arguments- all of which (with some reservations) I acknowledge.
In the meantime, we must wait and see whether Adrian's idea is workable and doesn't add too much more extra cost (but expect some clever person to find a way around it).
Neil
BTW: no, even 'if it's so easy', my age, health and inclination mean that I will not be setting up in business and making myself a millionaire overnight
Tommys War
A Fixture
Frankly Neil, and with all due respect, you don't have the foggiest idea of how the figures market works. You seem to be basing a business model on larger sized businesses and forgetting that the largest sector of this market is cottage industry. Apple, Dyson and Nike, mate you're living in fairyland.
I've answered your point earlier on Price Elasticity of Demand and explained why that doesn't work. Throw as much marketing bollocks as you like at it, recasting is fraud, simple as.
This thread goes round and round and round and you keep bringing it back to the old "people can't afford it". Well tough, I can't afford a Bentley, but it doesn't give me the right to go and steal one.
You state you have "reservations' about strategy and scale. I tell you what, come and work with me for a month. Come and do a 60 hour working week in a full-time job, then spend another 20 hours working on Tommy's War. You can get up with me at 6am on a Sunday and work through to 9pm sorting orders, the website, briefing new figures and all the other admin jobs that need to be done. You can sit with me answering emails until midnight after a full day at work before getting up at 6am to do it all over again. For that I'll pay you exactly what I earn from it, a big fat **** all. Then at the end of the month I'll sit you down and tell you if you put in another 20 hours a week then it might stop people stealing from you.
And if it sounds like I'm getting angry with you, then it's because I am. Jesus, you're so far off the mark it's unbelievable
NeilW
A Fixture
Hi Tommy: please don't be angry ... we're all entitled to our own opinion
(and didn't Voltaire quote something about defending to your death my right to be wrong?)
Speaking of which: in all honesty, I don't buy your assertion that the figures market is price inelastic.
I do (and did) acknowledge and accept the issue of scale and strategy (one could talk about passion/vanity businesses).
And, at no point did I suggest that my argument in anyway justifies re-casting: it simply explores why it is viable (I won't revive the fact that producing unlicensed character figs is equally illegal yet many seem to turn Nelson's eye to this).
As for 'off-shoring': I stated China rather tongue in cheek, but from what I hear it's easier and cheaper than one may think (especially if you 3D model).
... and BTW: I haven't made the thread go 'round and round': I thought it was dead but someone recently revived it....I wish they hadn't.
Have a good day
Neil
FWIW I spent all of my marketing career working with SMEs and/or NFP outfits and found that the basic 'laws' worked for them
(and didn't Voltaire quote something about defending to your death my right to be wrong?)
Speaking of which: in all honesty, I don't buy your assertion that the figures market is price inelastic.
I do (and did) acknowledge and accept the issue of scale and strategy (one could talk about passion/vanity businesses).
And, at no point did I suggest that my argument in anyway justifies re-casting: it simply explores why it is viable (I won't revive the fact that producing unlicensed character figs is equally illegal yet many seem to turn Nelson's eye to this).
As for 'off-shoring': I stated China rather tongue in cheek, but from what I hear it's easier and cheaper than one may think (especially if you 3D model).
... and BTW: I haven't made the thread go 'round and round': I thought it was dead but someone recently revived it....I wish they hadn't.
Have a good day
Neil
FWIW I spent all of my marketing career working with SMEs and/or NFP outfits and found that the basic 'laws' worked for them
Hello Tommy
i read your comments.
please remember without your obvious passion and talent we would not have anything to paint.
Maybe the way to create customer loyalty is to reward repeat purchasers with exclusive items or loyalty points which can be used with future purchases? You could possibly tie this in with your reseller network if you have one?
maybe also people cannot put forward their figures into competitions without proof of being genuine?
recasters are not unique to miniature painters but they have a disproportionate impact on small companies.
it will not be fixed overnight but I believe if craftsman, resellers and competition hosts can work as a team you can achieve something.
just some thoughts.
i read your comments.
please remember without your obvious passion and talent we would not have anything to paint.
Maybe the way to create customer loyalty is to reward repeat purchasers with exclusive items or loyalty points which can be used with future purchases? You could possibly tie this in with your reseller network if you have one?
maybe also people cannot put forward their figures into competitions without proof of being genuine?
recasters are not unique to miniature painters but they have a disproportionate impact on small companies.
it will not be fixed overnight but I believe if craftsman, resellers and competition hosts can work as a team you can achieve something.
just some thoughts.
Forté
A Fixture
Okay...
Large corporate companies have millions or even billions in the bank. Using companies like Apple is a bad example as all or their products are massively marked up in comparison to how much they actually cost to build with their cheap Indian and Chinese labour so comparing a huge, world spanning company's methods to a company which may be one person who pays freelancers to design, sculpt, and cast is pretty short sighted (and also quite insulting to some peoples work too).
A single miniature may only sell 100 copies in its life.
Apple earphones (which have a huge markup and make more profit than the phones) sell hundreds a second worldwide.
As for loyalty schemes... you'll find many miniature companies do them or have tried. You'll also find than many also offer pre-order discounts, discounts to newsletter subscribers, discounts at shows, and good service for replacing parts which aren't up to quality. Do Apple offer so many discounts? No. They look to make your product life span as short as possible so you have to buy and consume more.
As for the whole "it costs too much" argument. That often comes from people who already have more than they can paint in a lifetime. Do you 'need' to buy multiple miniatures a month? Not usually. Many who are really fast at painting even sell the painted ones on which then funds their hobby. Plus, how many hobby companies do you see sponsoring painters and competitions? Quite a fair amount. That all comes out of profit so and profit for a miniatures company is tiny.
Large corporate companies have millions or even billions in the bank. Using companies like Apple is a bad example as all or their products are massively marked up in comparison to how much they actually cost to build with their cheap Indian and Chinese labour so comparing a huge, world spanning company's methods to a company which may be one person who pays freelancers to design, sculpt, and cast is pretty short sighted (and also quite insulting to some peoples work too).
A single miniature may only sell 100 copies in its life.
Apple earphones (which have a huge markup and make more profit than the phones) sell hundreds a second worldwide.
As for loyalty schemes... you'll find many miniature companies do them or have tried. You'll also find than many also offer pre-order discounts, discounts to newsletter subscribers, discounts at shows, and good service for replacing parts which aren't up to quality. Do Apple offer so many discounts? No. They look to make your product life span as short as possible so you have to buy and consume more.
As for the whole "it costs too much" argument. That often comes from people who already have more than they can paint in a lifetime. Do you 'need' to buy multiple miniatures a month? Not usually. Many who are really fast at painting even sell the painted ones on which then funds their hobby. Plus, how many hobby companies do you see sponsoring painters and competitions? Quite a fair amount. That all comes out of profit so and profit for a miniatures company is tiny.
- Status
