Poste-militaire Vs Pegaso! (old Vs New)
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I'm mainly a scratchbuilder but have made some PM an Pegaso kits during these years.
The PM kits fit was perfect always and the overall quality, exquisite. You have to work a bit more with the Pegaso kits, but still are extremely good to me.
As somebody told, one of the reasons is that Pegaso produces much more kits than PM produced in its days. There are more people involved in casting, packaging, etc.
I think there is another important difference: If you look at the catalogues of both firms, will find that the stance of PM figures is usually more "static" than that of Pegaso's.
The more dinamic is the pose, more difficult is the desing of the figure and the casting.
The PM kits fit was perfect always and the overall quality, exquisite. You have to work a bit more with the Pegaso kits, but still are extremely good to me.
As somebody told, one of the reasons is that Pegaso produces much more kits than PM produced in its days. There are more people involved in casting, packaging, etc.
I think there is another important difference: If you look at the catalogues of both firms, will find that the stance of PM figures is usually more "static" than that of Pegaso's.
The more dinamic is the pose, more difficult is the desing of the figure and the casting.
kagemusha
A Fixture
Yes, Ray would have made every effort to ensure greater success and larger volumes were equalled by better QC but, one thing I have personally experienced, is that means more people involved. This in turn raises the question of an individuals commitment to their task or, to put it another way, "who polices the police"! For Ray it was much simpler as there was only himself, Norma and later Julian his son so, not knowing how many people they have at Pegaso or each individuals level of commitment to their task, it is difficult to assess where the weakness in QC has come from. I am trying to be fair to Pegaso but I guess it speaks for itself when I say that the reviews here on PF are invaluable to us all when so many doubts about current quality from manufacturers abound and, when we are looking at very high costs to ourselves, in order to continue to enjoy the hobby we love. I would love to do a 90mm mounted figure but, at somewhere in the region of £200 these days, I for one cannot afford to be disappointed at what I receive. I think this discussion is a valuable arena for the manufacturers to take note of and hope that some of the points raised give them cause for thought. We are very lucky to have a forum like this where we can openly air our views.
Regards
Ron
Regards
Ron
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
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Ron, I totally agree that this forum is an invaluable source, and a veritable hive of information! for just about everything. I like yourself, can ill afford to purchase these figures, without knowing what I was actually getting, and the quality/build issues that might be present. Which is why most of my gear is off, e-bay. But even then I will scour and glean as much information, as I possibly can before commiting to buy. As you indicated their is nothing worse than opening a kit, and getting that sinking feeling, and saying whata waste of money. It would be encouraging if manufacturers, did read,note, and act upon, information and thoughts of the customer, from sites such as this forum.
Best Wishes,
Mark
Best Wishes,
Mark
kagemusha
A Fixture
Hi Mark and thanks for opening such a useful topic. It's always good to vent a little frustration on subjects like this, if only in the hope that the big boys will listen and act. Guess we can dream, eh!
Cheers
Ron
Cheers
Ron
kagemusha
A Fixture
Totally agree Steve. It is so very frustrating when a kit appears that you really want but you have to weigh up whether to buy it and hope it will be all you expect. I have taken a rest from painting because of the very issue raised here after three very disappointing purchases. What didn't help was the attitude I received when I questioned the quality of these items. In the UK we are lucky to have a few dedicated outlets who put customer service first such as Steve at SK and Matt and Celine at EL Greco to name but two. In fairness to the likes of Pegaso and Andrea, there have been posts on PF detailing their helpful attitude but, there have also been many against them. A viscious circle really which takes us back to quantity versus quality I guess.
I really wanted to go to Euro so that I could at least have a look before buying, but that makes an already expensive kit much more so when I add in the cost of travelling, entrance fees etc. Shame, because I feel I am being robbed of a much needed release from the stress of modern living, when I have to question the quality I will get for my hard earned money. It is, very sad.
Regards
Ron
I really wanted to go to Euro so that I could at least have a look before buying, but that makes an already expensive kit much more so when I add in the cost of travelling, entrance fees etc. Shame, because I feel I am being robbed of a much needed release from the stress of modern living, when I have to question the quality I will get for my hard earned money. It is, very sad.
Regards
Ron
Johan
A Fixture
My two cents :
Poste Militaire : I've never had a bad figure from them in terms of casting flaws, broken parts, or missing parts. Always 100% reliable, you could purchase with eyes closed.
Why is that ?
Ray Lamb was very hard on himself, and always tried to set a higher standard for himself. Poste Militaire used only the best quality materials, and better - but more expensive - white metal than other manufacturors. He worked with the best sculptors of that time - Derek Hansen, Mike Good, Julian Hullis, Stefano Cannone.
And - and this is VERY IMPORTANT, READ THIS ALL MANUFACTURORS !
- Poste Militaire REGULARLY MADE NEW MOULDS, he would not squeeze the last "drop" out of every mould, but would cast from fresh moulds as soon as that was necessary. Moulds are expensive, and nowadays many manufacturors don't even bother to change them, as this is too expensive ...
Also, Poste Militaire took their time to cast properly - what you often see these days on metal figures is that the parts were not cooled down when taken from the mould - but the more castings you can get out of a mould in a given time period is more important these days of economic crisis.
If you would ask me which present-day manufacturor is comparable with Poste Militaire in terms of quality and clearly setting a high standard for themselves, then I would say : Alpine Miniatures : because they are working with the very best materials (top quality resin), the quality of their product is reliable and even outstanding, and they work with the very best sculptors.
Poste Militaire : I've never had a bad figure from them in terms of casting flaws, broken parts, or missing parts. Always 100% reliable, you could purchase with eyes closed.
Why is that ?
Ray Lamb was very hard on himself, and always tried to set a higher standard for himself. Poste Militaire used only the best quality materials, and better - but more expensive - white metal than other manufacturors. He worked with the best sculptors of that time - Derek Hansen, Mike Good, Julian Hullis, Stefano Cannone.
And - and this is VERY IMPORTANT, READ THIS ALL MANUFACTURORS !
- Poste Militaire REGULARLY MADE NEW MOULDS, he would not squeeze the last "drop" out of every mould, but would cast from fresh moulds as soon as that was necessary. Moulds are expensive, and nowadays many manufacturors don't even bother to change them, as this is too expensive ...Also, Poste Militaire took their time to cast properly - what you often see these days on metal figures is that the parts were not cooled down when taken from the mould - but the more castings you can get out of a mould in a given time period is more important these days of economic crisis.
If you would ask me which present-day manufacturor is comparable with Poste Militaire in terms of quality and clearly setting a high standard for themselves, then I would say : Alpine Miniatures : because they are working with the very best materials (top quality resin), the quality of their product is reliable and even outstanding, and they work with the very best sculptors.
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
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@ Johan. This highlights, and thoroughly explains my initial question. Many thanks. I wasn't aware of the, 'New vs Old', moulds. It certainly does appear to be an answer as to why I was questioning the quality, of some of these top manufacturers, which seem to have defiinitely put quantity over quality. Why? Maximise profit margins?.., whilst simultaneously undermining a well established name! it's non-sensical.........
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
Guest
Helm!.. So what are you suggesting? That a large number of PF, members! group together as a collective, pull on their heaviest 'Boots', and have a 'Tour of Europe', stamping on the 'Tootsie's', of every figure manufacturers, 'CEO',..............Sounds good! where do I sign up!.. LOL!
.....Sounds good! where do I sign up!.. LOL!
I'll throw my oar in as well.
During the 80's/early 90's I worked for Ceremonial Studios (it was my brother and fathers buisness) and so knew Ray pretty well, as well as many of the other top quality maufacturers of the time. We used a few of the same sculptors as Ray along with Richard Almond, John Tassel and Roger Saunders. The quality of our white metal castings was always of paramount importance and this is were we felt our reputation would stand or fall. Ray Lamb's Poste Militaire was probably the market leader at the time due to the quality of his masters and his meticulous approach to sculpting, molding and casting his figures. It was a family buisness much like Ceremonial and was born from love of the hobby rather than turning over a big profit on the end of year balance sheet (well Ceremonial never turned over a big profit at least) . I'm not saying the guys at Pegaso don't love their art, they surely do, they are good enough at it, but I remember Ray would sometimes only produce one new release in a year, this kind of output would surely not be part of Pegaso's business model and somewhere there must be a trade off between quality/quantity going on in the Pegaso camp. It is frustrating considering their masters are very well sculpted and with a price tag that is overly high you would expect the kind of standard that Apline Miniatures produce. At least they are not as bad as Games Workshop though! My son plays 40K and I've been know to paint a few of their figures. They have recently begun replacing all of their white metal figures with Citadel "finecast" resin. The price is almost double, the quality is shocking, worst molding I have ever seen and using the cheapest resin with so many blowholes you'd think they had woodworm. That tangent aside I have to say that more dynamic poses and choice of subject matter available from Pegaso make their figures (on face value) more attractive to me personally but the cost and lapses in casting quality tend to negate this somewhat.
Alex.
During the 80's/early 90's I worked for Ceremonial Studios (it was my brother and fathers buisness) and so knew Ray pretty well, as well as many of the other top quality maufacturers of the time. We used a few of the same sculptors as Ray along with Richard Almond, John Tassel and Roger Saunders. The quality of our white metal castings was always of paramount importance and this is were we felt our reputation would stand or fall. Ray Lamb's Poste Militaire was probably the market leader at the time due to the quality of his masters and his meticulous approach to sculpting, molding and casting his figures. It was a family buisness much like Ceremonial and was born from love of the hobby rather than turning over a big profit on the end of year balance sheet (well Ceremonial never turned over a big profit at least
) . I'm not saying the guys at Pegaso don't love their art, they surely do, they are good enough at it, but I remember Ray would sometimes only produce one new release in a year, this kind of output would surely not be part of Pegaso's business model and somewhere there must be a trade off between quality/quantity going on in the Pegaso camp. It is frustrating considering their masters are very well sculpted and with a price tag that is overly high you would expect the kind of standard that Apline Miniatures produce. At least they are not as bad as Games Workshop though! My son plays 40K and I've been know to paint a few of their figures. They have recently begun replacing all of their white metal figures with Citadel "finecast" resin. The price is almost double, the quality is shocking, worst molding I have ever seen and using the cheapest resin with so many blowholes you'd think they had woodworm. That tangent aside I have to say that more dynamic poses and choice of subject matter available from Pegaso make their figures (on face value) more attractive to me personally but the cost and lapses in casting quality tend to negate this somewhat.Alex.
Johan
A Fixture
If you go to Euro Militaire in England with your Caterpillars on, please also stamp hard on the tootsies of manufacturors who accept your payment but never send your order.
... being humbugged, robbed, and taken for an imbecile, now THAT is what puts a man off most of all from figure painting.
Fortunately there's still plastic aircraft modelling - oh the bliss of opening a "Wingnut Wings" kit - and AFV modelling.
The Annoying Little Belgian has spoken.
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
Guest
Bless, all the Belgians!.....
..
Paul20100
Well-Known Member
I would surely add Métal Modèles from France and the no longer existing Elite Miniaturas from Spain.
Johan
A Fixture
The white metal that Métal Modèles use is similar in quality if not the same to what Poste Militaire used.
An anecdote : I used to know a guy who was a wonderful sculptor, and he sometimes would cast some bits and pieces for himself, and as material he used the bases that come with figures - nobody hardly ever uses them.
This was his verdict : the white metal in most kits is of average quality - but the white metal in a Poste Militaire or a Métal Modèles kit is of superior quality - "it just flows like wine when you melt it and cast with it" that's what he said.
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
Guest
Good Heavens!...... This must be my lucky month on E-Bay!......, just recieved my latest purchase a few moments ago. P/Militaire 'French Hussar', standing, with chair and pipe.... With three heads.??not bad for 20 quid.
Kreston
Well-Known Member
David Grieve also set a very high standard with the casting of his 100mm series of kits. Excellent fit with very little cleanup needed.
Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED
Guest
@ Paul, and Johan. I was unaware of this company, (Metal Modeles) so had a look!... Some very impressive figures!.. So, would you stand them alongside, 'Poste-Militaire'?
Figurenfreund66
A Fixture
I think you forgot at Pegaso, and numerous other major manufacturers that this was once the hobby. Now it's just commerce, much money is earned.
When I look at the figures PM, they are very closely researched and produced with attention to detail!
Today, in the age of Internet, where every piece of information is just a mouse click you can get erroneous figures. Which are expensive and you still for more money, or have to rebuild a lot of time!
Fortunately, there are many small manufacturers and top modellers who work against this trend. Carl Reid, Moz, Model Cellar, Nelly Auffret just to name a few.
I spend my money this because I know that I get quality and accuracy.
Of Pegaso and other large I bought for years nothing more!
Cheers
Hendryk
When I look at the figures PM, they are very closely researched and produced with attention to detail!
Today, in the age of Internet, where every piece of information is just a mouse click you can get erroneous figures. Which are expensive and you still for more money, or have to rebuild a lot of time!
Fortunately, there are many small manufacturers and top modellers who work against this trend. Carl Reid, Moz, Model Cellar, Nelly Auffret just to name a few.
I spend my money this because I know that I get quality and accuracy.
Of Pegaso and other large I bought for years nothing more!
Cheers
Hendryk
Martin64
A Fixture
Interesting thread - but before everybody agrees that we simply should scan ebay for old Poste Militaire kits and stay away from the big (bad?) companies of today I will throw in some controversial thoughts. I built some Franco-Prussian-War PM-kits (and some 90mm Julian Hullis-Sculpts too) and they were back in the nineties simply the best kits you could get on the market. The prices you had to pay for them at that time reflected the quality and there were no cheapos on ebay. When Pegaso appeared on the market I had the impression that they wanted to turn out nearly as many and diverse new releases as Andrea Miniatures and get as close as possible to Poste Militaire in respect to quality. In my eyes they succeeded. Their prices reflected this quality likewise.
The Pegaso kits I built in the meantime were never a problem so maybe I am lucky (or less picky - maybe both ). I am sure that if Ray Lamb would have designed them they would have been perfect but I am satisfied with what I got. If there was an issue (and I had once or twice a problem with damaged/missing parts) Pegaso customer service replaced the parts in question without any hassle. And finally there was never a problem with their kits that could not be solved by an average modeller (like me).
So in the end it`s in my eyes all about the price tag of the kits and what we expect to get for the money.
On one side I realize that a company like Pegaso has to cover the costs for their staff, the sculptors, the castings, the packaging, the presentation (boxarts), maybe research etc. and that the costs for a popular new kit will nearly be the same like the expenses for a subject that is not an "all time-classic". On the other side I feel that the prices have reached a point where one might expect that some models will come out of their box and start building and painting themselves.
So I do not have problems with quality issues of Pegaso but if I see todays prices of new releases (not just from Pegaso) I take a happy look at the recruits of the grey army.....
Cheers, Martin
The Pegaso kits I built in the meantime were never a problem so maybe I am lucky (or less picky - maybe both
). I am sure that if Ray Lamb would have designed them they would have been perfect but I am satisfied with what I got. If there was an issue (and I had once or twice a problem with damaged/missing parts) Pegaso customer service replaced the parts in question without any hassle. And finally there was never a problem with their kits that could not be solved by an average modeller (like me).So in the end it`s in my eyes all about the price tag of the kits and what we expect to get for the money.
On one side I realize that a company like Pegaso has to cover the costs for their staff, the sculptors, the castings, the packaging, the presentation (boxarts), maybe research etc. and that the costs for a popular new kit will nearly be the same like the expenses for a subject that is not an "all time-classic". On the other side I feel that the prices have reached a point where one might expect that some models will come out of their box and start building and painting themselves.
So I do not have problems with quality issues of Pegaso but if I see todays prices of new releases (not just from Pegaso) I take a happy look at the recruits of the grey army.....
Cheers, Martin
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