Poste-militaire Vs Pegaso! (old Vs New)

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Hendryk,...... This is why this forum is so good!.. As it opens avenues! Names, Links, a lot of which I have never heard of. This will be interesting to look at. Thanks.

 

[kagemusha]

One thing that comes to mind in all of this discussion, is how unhappy we, as a collective, feel about the current downward trend in quality amongst certain major players in the industry today. Alongside that there is a lot of praise for the smaller players such as Moz, Carl Reid and many others, and rightly so. I am intrigued that they can produce such stunning sculpts/kits, yet keep prices so very reasonable. Moz, in my opinion offers real value for money, especially when you take into account his recent free figure offers. This means nothing without quality and service to match. I would love to know why the big boys cannot see that quality, service and cost, have a big impact on sales. As Alex said earlier, Ray was fastidious about changing moulds and, whilst the moulding process is a black art to me, I do remember him saying that this was part of the costing of any new figure. Surely all manufacturers take this into account when pricing a figure as it would be a consumable. After all, when you buy a car, you expect to replace the tyres.

Ron

 

[Helm]

Ron I think it's a classic case of greed over substance they want us to pay for every aspect of the product even the stuff that they as manufacturers should factor in as normal running costs and while people will pay Rolls Royce prices for Model T Fords they'll keep at it. I'll once again sing the praises of Steve at Reedees Miniatures his figures are very reasonably priced and fit like watch parts He like Moz and the others mentioned earlier is pretty much a one man band yet he gives a toss about service and his customers

Steve

 

[Redcap]

Some interesting comments but in addition to "P.M.", let's not also forget in quality terms "D.F. GRIEVE". The quality of the metal, casting, fit of parts and robust packaging (along with comprehensive often illustrated painting instructions) was second to none. At some stage, I have owned virtually all his figures in the range and never had a missing part, bad casting, mold line or 'flash' on a single one. Indeed, hold one of their "Classic 100" figures in one hand and a 90mm Pegaso / Andrea etc. figure in the other, and the D.F. GRIEVE item seems about twice as heavy; almost as though cast from lead rather than W.M. A quite fabulous and timeless company in terms of quality AND subject matter.


Gary

 

[Martin64]

One thing that comes to mind in all of this discussion, is how unhappy we, as a collective, feel about the current downward trend in quality amongst certain major players in the industry today. Alongside that there is a lot of praise for the smaller players such as Moz, Carl Reid and many others, and rightly so

I think that the discussion was about Poste Militaire vs Pegaso in respect to quality control. I personally do not see a downward trend. The problem seems to me the price tag in relation to minor flaws that would have been accepted earlier among modellers when the price did not kill all your hobby savings.
Talking about cars - if you pay for a Mercedes you do not expect Rolls Royce .... whatever
Cheers, Martin

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Martin,.. I think you have hit the nail on the head. (quote) 'what we expect to get for the money',... Pegaso, are not cheap, actually I would assess that they are at the higher end of the price bracket. So what do we get for the money??.. Probably, more fixing, Filling, sanding and pinning etc! granted! your right most are not insurmountable, but do we have to pay extra for that privilage?... Because it would be a hard hit on the wallet, to fix and quite possibly 'Muck-up', and /or damage, casting issues that really shouldn't be there in the first place especially at this price range. I would gladly 'Tinker' with cheaper figures, and not be too upset if I fluffed it. However, when there are sizable gaps, and ill-fitting components, obsure, almost pointless glue points! then I feel I need to ask why. Don't get me wrong, 'Pegaso', do some wonderful figures, but the quality has huge variation. probably more so in recent years. But this is just my own observation.

 

[Paul20100]

The white metal that Métal Modèles use is similar in quality if not the same to what Poste Militaire used.

An anecdote : I used to know a guy who was a wonderful sculptor, and he sometimes would cast some bits and pieces for himself, and as material he used the bases that come with figures - nobody hardly ever uses them.

This was his verdict : the white metal in most kits is of average quality - but the white metal in a Poste Militaire or a Métal Modèles kit is of superior quality - "it just flows like wine when you melt it and cast with it" that's what he said.

Definitely. I saw it with my own eyes in B. Leibovitz's workshop.

 

[polyphemus]

I'll repeat what I said a few weeks ago with regard to a discussion of an Andrea resin figure;
"It never ceases to amaze me what rubbish product or service we get dished up with from time to time. In my view a stock figure should primarily be a painting excercise. Yes I do accept there will be some minimal mould lines, I do accept there will be the need for a modicum of filler and obviously parts need to be glued together but that's as far as it should go. If I wanted a major modelling project I'd scratchbuild or at least do major conversions. I don't expect missing parts but if there are I expect a replacement by return of post not having to go grovelling by repeated emails or phone calls to get the part. It's their fault not mine. I don't expect having to expend my time or money putting right suppliers' mistakes or shoddy workmanship.
I also expect that the item will then last for years without degarding over time because of inherent problems with failure of material eg lead rot. Horses should not collapse under their own weight because of insufficient support in the legs. It's not enough to cast a steel rod into the leg, that steel rod should also extend down into the base.
I do expect that if an item is sold online then it should be in stock, if not then payment should not be taken until it is in stock. This particularly applies where for example paypal is used as the payment mechanism and payment is taken at the point of order.
These things are not inexpensive and I would suggest that most of us wouldn't tolerate poor service/product like this on other retail items. Imagine buying an electrical/electronic item and being expected to have to resolder or replace components or to have to reprogram the thing yourself.
Ok I know that's a protracted rant but if some some suppliers can get it right why can't they all?"


Geoff

 

[kagemusha]

Steve you are spot on again. I have not dealt with Reedees (Steve) as yet, but will definitely take a look after your recommendation. I would like to say that Steve at SK gets my personal vote for first class service for going the extra mile when I had cause to question the quality of a figure I purchased from him. No fuss or query, he just wanted me to be happy so that I would keep coming back. For me it is a matter of trust. If I can trust a manufacturer to sell me a quality product in exchange for my hard earned money I will return. If not I will spend it with someone I can trust to honour their side of the bargain. Yes it may mean that I miss out on a figure I would like but, that is easier to live with than disappointment, frustration and feeling cheated.

Ron

 

[Johan]

Moz, in my opinion offers real value for money, especially when you take into account his recent free figure offers.

... Well, I did pay my money, but several weeks and two promises later I'm still waiting for that real value ... ...

I don't think it's funny anymore; lost my sense of humour and my patience and I decided to start modelling Wingnut Wings 1/32 biplanes.

Goodbye.

 

[Einion]

I think a little more balance might be necessary in this thread, given all the blanket praise being handed out.

I've owned some pretty poor examples of Pegaso's casting/QC myself* - a mismatch of a couple of millimetres front to back, on a 54, is extreme by any standard. However I've also seen some shoddy castings from every producer of white metal figs I can think of from back in the day, smaller producers and major players included, especially including Poste Militaire and David Grieve**, as well as Almond, Series 77 and Tiny Troopers.

*For balance though I have to mention that one of the best-cast metal figs I've ever had the pleasure of owning is also a Pegaso... probably significantly, I know it to have been a very early casting.

**Anyone interested should do a search for the phrase "buy early or not at all", this should find one or two previous discussions showing that uniformly-flawless castings from them was not the reality.

Einion

 

[Alex Long]

As Alex said earlier, Ray was fastidious about changing moulds and, whilst the moulding process is a black art to me, I do remember him saying that this was part of the costing of any new figure. Surely all manufacturers take this into account when pricing a figure as it would be a consumable.

Ron

I believe Ray used to use the same moulding process that Ceremonial Studios used, which was vulcanising rubber discs within a metal ring. The process involves building up layers of soft rubber and positioning the figure parts within this. The skill is to understand the properties of the metal used when it is to be poured (correct metal temperature is critical) so that it flows correctly into the mould when it is spun in the centrifugal casting machine and gives a clean crisp casting. When the parts are sandwiched between the layers of rubber the whole thing is put into a press consisting of two hotplates which reach a temperature of around 100 degrees and a pressure of 13 tonnes. Some masters don't survive this process intact, particularly if they are made of multiple materials such as metal, miliput etc. For example Richard Almond used to solder all the braiding onto a hussar jacket and occasionally the solder would melt during the mold making process, so sometimes just the one mould is all that exists. Alternatives to this problem included making a cold cast version of the original master for use in the vulcanised mould but invariably resulted in a loss of detail and impacted on the perfect fit of parts. I don't know if new methods are used today for white metal casting but I'm guessing issues around mould life/quality are responsible for the issue of QC.

Alex.

 

[Martin64]

So what do we get for the money??.. Probably, more fixing, Filling, sanding and pinning etc! granted! .......... However, when there are sizable gaps, and ill-fitting components, obsure, almost pointless glue points! then I feel I need to ask why. Don't get me wrong, 'Pegaso', do some wonderful figures, but the quality has huge variation. probably more so in recent years. But this is just my own observation.

If that is your observation I understand your frustration. What I wanted to point out is that your thread started about PM vs Pegaso and not about small players vs big players et all. Especially about one of the small players there seem to be two fractions on this forum and their game started already again.
The points you mentioned that do not meet your expectations when opening the box of a Pegaso kit are in my eyes very general and I would prefer to learn about your exact problems related to a special kit.
I am always prepared to deal with the problems you mentioned -except the "ill fitting components" - when building a kit from any manufacturer. And last but not least: Over here at PF you will get always helpful advice and support when running into problems while building a kit.
Cheers,
Martin

 

[Helm]

That is rather the problem Martin while YOU maybe prepared to deal with slip shod work I personally am not. I have got to the stage where I'll only buy from people I trust or where I can physically examine the kit a bit of sanding and filling is acceptable having to virtually re-engineer an entire kit isn't. I don't have a lot of money as it is I'm damned if I am going to waste it on rubbish. After all it's a hobby not an exercise in blood pressure raising In relation to the original theme I have never bought a poorly cast P.M. figure nor for that matter the sadly defunct Hinchcliffe range

Steve

 

[MCPWilk]

I personally never had a duff casting from Poste Militaire or from David Grieve. The high price of Pegaso figures puts me off buying them, especially when one looks at the prices of 200 and 120mm resin figures.

Mike

 

[Martin64]

OK - it`s time to get back to the work bench and deal with slip shod work - . If it`s all about big bad greedy players it is easy to avoid disappointments by getting all your figures from the small good , very good, ehr awesome,... players (no reason to get upset just JOKING a bit). I for my part like sometimes the subject regardless of the producer and want to build and paint them. So there is no way to get around the general difficulties when building a model.
All the best and happy MODELLING
Martin

 

[kagemusha]

Hi Einion, I just did a search as you suggested, and came across a particular thread/discussion which almost mirrored this one, only apparent difference seemed to be that Pegaso had been replaced by Andrea. What struck me was your statement regarding the lapses in quality you had experienced with both Ray and David's casting. As you rightly said, even the best and the small have their bad days but, would you not agree, advances in materials and equipment in todays market should reap better results in quality and consistency than they would seem to. As I said earlier I would love to do a 90mm mounted figure and, without doubt, Pegaso have some of the finest subjects in terms of pose/dynamism in my favourite periods. I just can't afford to waste six months of hard work and savings on a sub standard cast. That said, I am driven by a desire to continue doing what I love. Painting figures.

Regards

Ron

 

[Helm]

Ron then it's probably better for quality to go P.M. they are the masters of the horse sculpt IMO

Steve

 

[kagemusha]

But where do I find one Steve? Looked on e bay and they look suspect ! Any suggestions.

Cheers

Ron

 

[Helm]

Sure Ron Bonapartes do them brand new mate http://www.bonapartesmilitarymodels.co.uk/ I've not bought a mounted off them but I did buy a foot Empress Dragoon and the casting was great and they were most helpful over sourcing a chess set as I wanted it to complement another figure ( The Trumpeter 1st Regiment Dragoons) so I'd recommend them


Steve