questions on 3D printing and effect on the hobby industry

[Comic-Club]

@ Zodiac,
Its a printer in Hong Kong called Ownage
Not really good price, but REALLY best quality.
BUT . As always, you just get for your money

 

[RKapuaala]

I worry about sending my 3D models to China. There is a huge amount of counterfeiting going on there and 3D files are perfect for counterfeiting.

 

[Comic-Club]

Well this one has a verry verry good reputation.
even the Big Ones do print there (DC Online Statues)
This Guys live by their Quality and their good reputation.
Its like Thailand,
I will not sell to Thailand, except to one guy.
Give me an alternative in Quality, because thats the only important point about the choice of printer, and of course - I trust him.
Until now I never hear something negative about him, anywhere.

 

[Comic-Club]

Look at this !
This will be my next Kit
Scale 1:6
And this is what I got from the Printer !!

 

[zodiac]

That is pretty impressive, so this is not done by additive printing? There doesn't appear to be any stepping that you get with these crappy desktop printers. Is this a straight photo or is it enhanced in photoshop a bit?

 

[Wayneb]

That is borderline scary;But if you really take a good look at that piece; It surely lacking in many ways.No need to go into too much detail,because anyone who has sculpted and knows anatomy knows what this piece is missing...........Wayne

 

[Comic-Club]

This is exactley how the piece is. No Photoshop or anything else.
It has only one lay of gray primer to see if there are some imperfections.
Concerning Sculpt.
Yes 3D sculpting is also sculpting, so there can be as much problems, or errors with Pose, Muscles aso.
And the knowledge and skill of every sculptor is different.
Traditional or 3D
This Figure started from zero.
The printing system, simply with my basic english and basic Technology understanding, goes like this.
Imagine a Glascontainer like an aquarium full of powder.
Then a laser shoots in the Powder, everywhere the end of the Laserray touch the powder, the powder becomes hard.
At the end of the process you see nothing else than the same container of powder.
Now you pure out the powder and inside is the part.
Take a brush and free the part from the dusty powder.
Thats it.
The clear advantage in 3D sculpting is that with no problem major changes can be done.
Unless like in traditional sculpting, the changes are limited, because maybe the entire Statue will have to be remodelled.
The big Contra is the price of print-out.
BTW I am no sculptor, neither traditional nor 3D.

 

[zodiac]

I don't quite understand what Wayne is alluding to, is he making a critique of the anatomy of the piece? Comic -club is quite right 3D sculpting is basically the same as traditional and has certain advantages too. I think this way of thinking is that because it was done on a computer the computer actually made the piece rather than the person at the keyboard, the computer is nothing more than a sophisticated tool and it all depends on the talent and knowledge of the sculptor, thankfully that will never change!. Thanks too Comic-Club for sharing that info I know the method you use, spray undercoating kind of fooled me as i thought that was straight out of the printer. Very impressed with the result. This is I think the way to go for our hobby rather than the additive method of printing which has too many limitations. Will the additive method get better? Who knows at this point but there's no point in buying a desk top printer at the moment for figure work the quality is a way off.

 

[Wayneb]

Sorry; you're just talking Techno..........Where does the feeling,the personality,the overall feel of the of the piece come in.
If you have never slipped into the shoes of an artist or sculptor that is trying to make a living out of what they love to do then don't throw that Techno ...........at me.........................Wayne

 

[zodiac]

Sorry Wayne, I simply didn't get what you were saying. If it was a critique of the actual sculpt then fair enough. I was talking throughout the thread about output of 3D sculpture not the actual piece per ce. As it happens for the record here I speak from very extensive experience as a sculptor both commercial and pastime. I do know what I'm on about believe me. 3D is a very exciting artistic development and thankfully is here to stay. I wasn't addressing you in particular when I was talking about print output merely sharing my own experiences and acquired knowledge. This is a big learning curve. All I can say to you is go out and do some research into this and quit coming on so aggressively. Basically the hard truth is if someone is a brilliant sculptor that brilliance will shine through in 3D just the same as traditional sculpture. I've seen posts before about 'feeling' and 'personality' being absent but that's not the case at all. There are many wonderful digital sculptors doing awesome work. It's something to embrace and welcome not be frightened or feel threatened by.

 

[Comic-Club]

I do work with artist, both traditional and Digital. I am in the Modelkit business since over 20 Years. But now for the first time "expanding" (before all the Kits where only for an innercircle, no selling "outside")
May I quote Ruben Ruminates :
I got a great piece of advice from my Dad when I started at Disney many years ago, and I carry it to this days:"As youwalk into a job, check your ego at the door. Go inside and do the job they're paying you to do. Thois not Ruben Procovic Productions, this is Disney Productions. If you disagree or have a suggestion, remember that you're a part of a team and you have to work together. At the end of the day, pick up your ego, go back to your studio at home, and do what you want to do there."
Ruben checks his ego at the door before meeting with a client.
Pop Sculpture page 94.
When I commission a statue, lets say Charlie Chaplin, in a specific pose, then I want to have Charlie in this Pose. With a dead on Likness. As near the original as possible. I do not want an interpretation of what Charlie MIGHT be, point of vue from that sculptor.
When I want a Kelly Jones Batman, I want that. Dont care if the anatomy isnt right. It has to be the KJ Version. not the "corrected" version from the sculptor.
Some artist have problems with this way. Well they have to sculpt for them self. Producing the Kits themsel, That will be no Problem.
But if such discussions came up on an ordered Piece - NO WAY !
Also I see many traditional sculptors rise against 3D Technik.
Well its just another way of sculpture.
There will always be yesteryears...
There are associations for Black & White Movies, but to be honest, how long will they survive?
I like both, and will not be Part of one side in this War.
But for sure, it is simplier to work with 3D artist than with traditionals.
The first ones consider themself often as kind of technicians, and the others as artists.
Right or not!
Actually I have 3 traditional sculptures on order.
They will be great. Not better than 3D, but not worse. And I hope even that there will be NO difference at all.

 

[RKapuaala]

Wayne, I hope you're not implying that just because a person is sculpting in 3D there is no 'feeling' or 'personality' because like all mediums those qualities depend on the sculptor. And I would add that each sculptor imparts his on personality or feeling to a piece whether intentional. Those qualities the sculptor gives to the piece are his interpretation of the subject.
Comic - Clubs sculpt is reminiscent (to me) of the actual comic book hero Thor and not the movie personality. I started most of my serious comic book reading over 50 years ago and when I look back on the pages of those old comics I see a lot of detail is missing that the reader's mind had to add in. Maybe that's what brought the characters to life in the first place. I stopped reading them about 35 years ago and while I really enjoy the movies it isn't so much because of the level of realism or the special effects but because of the feeling and personality that the individual actors and the directors breathe back into the character. That being said though, no actor has manage to beat my first impression of those characters when I read the comic's many years ago and I think it is the sculptors/artist duty and responsibility to share those impressions and not just an accurate reproduction of the form.
The level of detail that is popular on this site borders on 3D scan quality of the human figure and his accessories. That detail is not obtain completely from the eye then transferred to the hand. The truth is, 'artists' have been 3D scanning the human figure since the Renaissance, their tools were just different. Today's tools have just made that process easier and less time consuming.
So Wayne tell me, what is the difference between taking, calipers, dividers, rulers, plumb bobs etc.... and or pantographs and painstakingly transferring those details to another medium like wood, clay or stone? Each of those mediums have characteristic that challenge both the mind and the hand of the craftsman. I can not afford a scanner and so I have to personally do measurements and use a lot of hand eye coordination to transfer shapes to the object, whether it's clay or bits. So for me, the only difference is the characteristics of the medium I am working in. I have worked in wood, I have worked a little in stone and they are all as different from each as 3D is from each of them. They all have qualities that make them challenging and rewarding.
Most of my experience is in clay. I include in that category of mediums, bakeable and epoxy clays as well as wax. They are forgiving material but have limits to what you can do with them. Unless you are going to bisque them, they really aren't stand alone pieces like stone or wood. You have to cast them. In addition to this drawback, you have the fact that they are as brittle as stone for some parts and depending on which clay or wax you use there is always the risk of distorting the piece as you work.
Stone is brittle and hard on tool but has intrinsic qualities that make the material itself beautiful to look at. But there is no margin for error in stone if you are going to make a sincere piece and celebrate its intrinsic qualities.
Wood is equally unforgiving if you mean to take advantage of the beauty of its color and grain. While it is not as hard on tools it is still more physically demanding than clay.
3D sculpting is very forgiving in some respects. As it is digital and the file formats for the most part are well documented and well known you can almost always identify and fixed a flawed area that will destroy a print without the fancy software. Even if you have that software, it still takes a great deal of knowledge and experience to spot and fix printer problems. If your problem is more on the line of proportions or artistry then you can easily manipulate groups of polygons and modify them in a way that only clay that is not baked or harden in anyway can be changed, but you can do it in a way that doesn't destroy detail you worked so hard on before catching the eye sore.
The real challenge with 3D is the environment and the lack of physical feed back you get from traditional tools. While you can turn the piece around and view it from any angle you have to overcome the impression that you are using someone else hand to work on a piece behind a plate glass window in less than desirable lightening.
While the software does a lot to assist you it is lacking one other essential function and that is the ability to bring grace and character to a form whether it is scanned or sculpted. It is, like the traditional tools, unable to understand what inspires the human soul. That function is remains in the domain of the artist.

 

[Comic-Club]

@RKapuaala
Thanks,
I agree 100%,
but my english is not good enough to express myself in those therms.

 

[Wayneb]

First of all ;Sorry if I offended anyone regarding my response.Maybe I'm just getting old and crotchety.But I still stand behind what I said.You see I myself tried to make it as a sculptor for a couple of years with some success but it was feast or famine which by necessity started a printing business which was successful for 23 yrs. until the economy took a crap.
Never kept up with technology, because there wasn't a need at the time.
So I know what kind of heart and soul goes into a sculpture from human hands and so this digital 3 dimension printing thing just doesn't set right with me "yet"......But hey....to each his own.........Best regards to all........Wayne

 

[RKapuaala]

Wayne, have you tried to do a digital sculpting? If not then you aren't even being fare. As I have said, I've sculpted in wood, stone, clay and 3D, so I think I can argue very strongly that if your heart in soul goes in to one medium it doesn't necessarily make that medium the hands down only medium to use.
Michael Angelo sculpted in stone. He disrespected anyone who sculpted in clay and unlike his contempories he refused to use joinery to sculpt but insisted on picking the right stone and bringing his subject to life in that single piece. Did it make him right? No, it meant he was very opinionated and very good at the technique he choose to express himself in.
I've seen some remarkable stuff in clay and in wood and in 3D. But can every sculptor do incredible work on all mediums. I know I can't. I'm terrible in stone. It could be because I've never been able to afford to make mistakes and it terrifies me to even work in stone. I was pretty good in wood and clay, and I'm pretty good in 3D. Is my work incredible,,, not yet,,, not yet in any medium, but I keep trying in all the mediums that I can afford. I may never become the sculptor I want to be, but it will not be for lack of trying and I won't put other mediums down because I was not successful, hell I've seen good stuff in paper mache and soft sculpted textiles.

 

[Wayneb]

Yes,I'm out of my league when it comes to this category.Probably should have never sounded off.Just something that tripped my trigger.I guess old school is no longer.........Keep up the good work.....Regards.........Wayne

 

[RKapuaala]

Wayne, I'm worried that you are not getting my point. Art has always pushed the envelope when it comes to technology. In the grand timeline of artistic endeavors the use of perspective has only been around since the Renaissance around 1400 AD making it only about 600 years old, but man has been making art since he crawled out in to the caves and then back out again.
The artist looks for new mediums to express himself in and shouldn't be bound to just one medium. A good example is Pablo Picasso, look at some of his early works and compare them to the later years. He went to being a classical artist of the highest degree to being an abstract modernist who sculpted in rubbish and what ever he could find. The man used what ever he could find to express himself, there is no such thing as 'old school'; when it comes to art school is always in session.

 

[Wayneb]

Well said......at least use your name at the end of your post so I know who I'm talking to..........Wayne

 

[zodiac]

As long as you are happy then any medium is OK. I agree there's nothing 'old school' about sculpting nor will there ever be. Whenever something new comes along it seems to polarize peoples opinions. They have the curiosity and cohounies to embrace it or they get hostile and dismissive. A true artist will always be open to new mediums of expression pastimers tend to be a bit too proudly luddite.

 

[Wayneb]

Ah.....a salesman......I got it.....I was wondering why no PF members jumped into this.