Regarding recasters....and a couple of questions ?

[rossbach]

One thing I have noticed about recasts especially on eBay is that you rarely, if ever, see recasts of Russian manufacturers figures by the Chinese and I have yet to see the prolific Russian bloke on that site list (anything) that is produced /made by any of the Russia based companies. Perhaps those Russian lads are somewhat more 'robust' where their figures and financial interests are concerned and especially so against someone operating in the same country however vast a country that may be.

Just an observation that's all.

Gary

Sharp observation

When looking at 'Souvenirs.RU' at ebay sometimes it would appear they are not so squeamish when it comes to foreign brands. That place is full with copies of well known Western manufactures.

Maybe it's part of their hybrid warfare tactics

 

[rossbach]

Perhaps a silly question but what do we know about the extent of illegal recasting? Figures/statistics? How large is the damage for manufacturers and retailers.? If I read El Greco's message correctly we seem to have arrived at a turning point. So It must be pretty bad.

 

[RossM]

I tend to agree with you, to be honest recasting is a vicious circle ....which although may get broken at times ...joins back together all too quickly

Nap

This is all very interesting but I think, and people will probably disagree with me, that we are all missing the larger point here. This is not an issue that solely affects modelling companies but society as a whole. As such, it is a social problem. We live in a world where people now have a sense of entitlement. We live in a hedonistic age where people are quite willing and happy to reshape their moral values to have the next big thing no matter what that may be. We are all far too happy to look down our own silo rather than taking a moment to stand back and look at the larger picture. I realise that I am generalising here and evidenced by people's response to this thread clearly not everyone is willing to reshape their moral compass to have the latest model at a lower price. However, until society solves those issues that have led us to this point, then this will be as Nap said, a vicious cycle. One only has to look at the response to the post about this issue by Scale75 on Facebook. Rather than getting behind the point, the manufacturer was trying to make, several people used as an opportunity to make comments about Scale75's production values, which muddied the point of the whole discussion.

Ross

 

[elgreco]

Good points. When I get a figure that comes in anything other than a well cushioned plain box, I think "there was some money that could be saved". Yes its nice to have a nice box art photo, or a fancy wooden box. But, if that is adding to the cost, I say lose it. I don't believe I have ever used any instructions that come with a figure. Perhaps some with complicated horse tack, or other intricate parts, it might be needed, but I'm betting we could all do without it. Box art is again nice, but I could do without it, it has little bearing on the quality of the kit, and if there are pics of a finished example on the manufacturers website, great. As far as price vs. quality goes, I think there are those who are willing to accept lesser quality for a lower price, or aren't aware of what they are getting. But if my experience with the S&T figs is any indication, the quality gap may be negligible. Again it comes down to this; what has been tried is not working. Doing it more and expecting better results isn't going to achieve anything. I am sorry to say, but in business, cutting out the middle man has always been a step in cost saving, and would also allow a manufacturer control over whom they sell to. With the tools that are available these days, creating a website with ordering, accepting payments through paypal, calculating shipping and paying for it online, doing it yourself is not that daunting. Perhaps not ideal, but yelling "shame on you" over and over isn't doing anything.

Jason, boxart or a fancy box does not make much of a price difference to the kit costings. Neither does cutting out the middle man. Recasters don't care. There are loads of examples of recast kits without boxart and fancy boxes, and a lot of smaller manufacturers have no middleman, same as some of our own products. Yet they were still recast, even if prices were reasonable and well below average prices of similar products. We can't give them out for free as we have to pay taxes on our sales, which the recaster probably does not....

Another example, a lot of companies are releasing products using Kickstarters to try and get some cash flow before general release. And yet they are still recast, despite reduced prices and offers of free kits at pre-order. So changing the business model does not always work.

Manufacturers always strive to reduce the final product price, but at the end of the day, if less sales are being generated with every release, the price will go up. It's all relative. If they previously sold 300, and now they are selling 100, this unfortunately is reflected as the biggest cost (the sculpting and casting) would be the same whether they sell 300 or 100.

What guarantees are there regarding the quality of metal or resin used by the recasters? What guarantees are there that the recast metal does not contain lead, or that the resin used is of safe standards? The reality is that once a number of manufacturers are forced to close down, you can be assured that the recasters will continue to thrive as they will feel empowered to keep generating OOP kits....Their prices will start creeping up, as they are already doing on some sites... on some kits the price difference between the recast and the original is just a few pounds!

Our last release was 3 years ago to date. Taking one single kit down off Ebay or AliExpress takes a lot of man-hours, so again, it all comes at a cost to us all. The worst thing of it all is that as a manufacturer you are made to feel that you are the bully for trying to take someone's shop down! You have to justify every picture, every description of your product and produce hard evidence for this, FOR EACH AND EVERY KIT.... It is painful and soul-destroying so yes, we are at a crossroads now.

Have you any conception how painstaking it is to double-check customer orders and addresses with known recasters; to what lengths they go to in order to get the products by using third parties and underhand tactics; that they even resort to blackmail; how vigilant we have to be when orders are flagged up as high-risk by the payment gateway providers due to credit card risks and fraud.... This is what it entails to run a business whether big or small, for any serious person trying to put a stop to these recasters. But for every two of us there are tens of them.....

Same as it is easy for manufacturers to set up their own selling site, it is just as easy for the recasters to do the same. And as long as Ebay, AliExpress and Paypal, and all the other myriad of selling platforms, are being paid their fees, whether for legitimate products or not, they will continue to do so.

Apologies for the long rant. We hope this clarifies matters.

 

[akaryu]

Having started this thread out of pure anger and frustration because of Raul's plea, I just want to add that we have seen quite diverging reactions here, with some good questions posed, with a few people offering excuses for buying recasts, with very few people like Nap taking action on this forum and on FB, with some people resigned to 'it can't be helped, so let's sit back and do nothing', and with some valuable contributions on the how and why and the mindset of recasters AND their customers. All very interesting indeed. But let us be very clear: recasting IS illegal and the trade in illegal products is a crime, committed by both the seller AND the buyer, indeed the buyer of these products is equally guilty. It may be that we will not change much by putting up disclaimers and warnings, but smugly sitting back and letting things develop as they please isn't going to change anything for the better either. For those of you who might know where the Low Countries are situated, one of the expressions attributed to William of Orange is: 'Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer.'

Pierre

 

[JasonB]

And again you are back to the same point of doing the same thing (morality pleas, who is to blame, etc...) and calling for the same steps to be taken again (inform people who are likely already aware, etc...) . You aren't going to stop it, no matter your desire and effort to do so. As I said, it like killing a cockroach with a hammer. There will always be other to take their place. "Smugly sitting back and letting things develop as they please" isn't the point. The point is accepting reality and not taking the same steps over again and again thinking that you will get a different result. Thats the definition of insanity. Using the tactic of fighting the situation as you believe it should be ("I will shame them/inform them into not buying and they will listen and stop") as opposed to fighting the situation as it is ( actually changing the way in which figures are sold and priced) is a bit like the French sitting in the Maginot line and complaining that the Germans aren't fighting the way they expected them to. You have to change the business model to the market, not try to change the market to how you believe it should work. Also, posting here or other similar sites is a bit like a political campaign singing the praises of their candidate to people who are already going to vote for them. Singing to the choir if you will. My bet would be that the vast majority of buyers of recasts aren't from here.


I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps the truth of the matter is that its a fight that can't be won. But I do know that I don't feel bad about buying a recast of a figure from a company thats long dead, and I know I'm not the problem. My gray (grey) army of hundreds of authentic, still in the boxes figures is more than enough evidence of that. It's probably also evidence of insanity, hoarding and obsessive-compulsive disorder, but that's beside the point! Now back to our regularly scheduled programing....

 

[Babelfish]

Using the tactic of fighting the situation as you believe it should be ("I will shame them/inform them into not buying and they will listen and stop") as opposed to fighting the situation as it is ( actually changing the way in which figures are sold and priced) is a bit like the French sitting in the Maginot line and complaining that the Germans aren't fighting the way they expected them to.

Couldn't agree more. These threads just go round and round in circles but no matter how much moralising and hand-wringing there is, nothing ever seems to change.

As regards pricing, I recently bought a 120mm resin figure directly from a company (Rogan's Heroes in Eire, link here because I reckon they're worth a plug: www.rogans-heroes.com) for the paltry sum of just 18 Euros plus 6 Euros shipping.

So that's a very nice original 120mm resin figure delivered to my door for just 24 Euros (around 15-20 Euros less than we pay for a 75 mm from most companies these days). Moreover, the resin is of a high quality and both the casting and the fit of the parts are excellent.

Which begs the question: If they can do it for that price, why can't others? (Genuine question and not meant as a "dig" at anyone: would be interested to hear from other producers on that point as to what factors come into play in their particular case).

- Steve

 

[grasshopper]

This will end badly. blaming the artists and makers ...?

 

[Babelfish]

This will end badly. blaming the artists and makers ...?

Not at all. No-one is condoning recasting. But it's clear that just constantly appealing to people's better nature & sense of fair play and then just hoping for the best isn't really working. Which means that other avenues need to be explored and questions asked.

- Steve

 

[billyturnip]

I think we're all pretty much agreed on the fact that recasting figures will always be with us.
In my view the reason why there is such a problem is that the the recaster has the advantage of being able to sell his wares pretty much anonymously online with very little fear of being stopped.
If anyone can stop it, or more realistically curtail it, it's the likes of eBay etc. Taking away the method of selling illegal goods is the logical answer.
Is that likely to happen? I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

 

[JasonB]

This will end badly. blaming the artists and makers ...?

Nope, not blaming, pointing out options. I think its pretty well established that the attraction of recasts comes down to one thing (OK maybe 2). Price, and in rare cases, availability of OOP figures. I think the OOP part of it is minuscule, since the vast,vast majority of recast figures are of currently available kits. So lets look at price. I realize with legit manufacturers, they have to figure in the cost of having the figure created (sculpted, 3-d, whatever). Whether this is related hiring someone, or paying for your personal time to sculpt it. Beyond that, the costs could (should?) be the same. Resin and rubber for molds, boxes, packing material and postage should be about a wash. So if manufacturers keep their prices where they are, perhaps they lose...50 percent? 75 percent? Of their sales to cheaper recasts. If a manufacturer lowered their price to the same, or nearly the same as a recaster, they would remove what is the biggest attraction-low cost. So now lets say they are losing less than 20 percent of their sales to recasters. Are they now not making more money, and in addition, possibly removing the onus for people to recast kits in the process? Is it not at least worth a try?

I had a conversation with my wife this morning concerning her work. She believes people may be walking off with some pretty expensive wireless internet equipment, but they can't be sure because their asset management sucks, and everyone wants a key to the equipment store room. Getting a card key reader so they could know who accesses the storage room would cost about $9,000. Apparently thats too much for those in charge to pay, even though one or 2 pieces of stolen equipment may cost more than that. They refuse to invest the money because it would cost them too much, even though far more may be walking out the door and over time, the card reader may well more than pay for itself. Sure, lowering prices on legit figures (and perhaps selling them direct to buyers) may net less profit per unit, but the number sold might well more than make up for that, and put the recaster out of business to boot. In the end though, I think the bigger hang up for some is the adoption of a pragmatic solution as opposed to a constant idealistic, "just do the right thing please" appeal, which doesn't work, but feels better I guess.

 

[akaryu]

All very well with talk about business models and how the manufacturers should reconsider their way of doing business and how the high price for a model legitimates buying recasts, but that is just putting business above morality and I think you are completely missing the point of the problem.

You want a Porsche, but you think it's too expensive, but you absolutely crave one? Then what do you do? You steal one? Because there are no recasts or fake Porsches!

So anything you want but think too expensive, you will have to steal isn't it? Where does that put you?

You are free to put business theories above a simple and maybe naive try to raise some awareness, but that is certainly not everybody's point of view, at least not here on the continent!

 

[JasonB]

Never mind, life is too short...

 

[rossbach]

All very well with talk about business models and how the manufacturers should reconsider their way of doing business and how the high price for a model legitimates buying recasts, but that is just putting business above morality and I think you are completely missing the point of the problem.

You want a Porsche, put you think it's too expensive, but you absolutely crave one? Then what do you do? You steal one? Because there are no recasts or fake Porsches!

So anything you want but think too expensive, you will have to steal isn't it? Where does that put you?

You are free to put business theories above a simple and maybe naive try to raise some awareness, but that is certainly not everybody's point of view, at least not here on the continent!

You are dead right Pierre

 

[Ferris]

Have to step in to support Jason's point. I agree with his core comment: It is understandable to be angry about recasting, but merely pointing out that it is bad and immoral will have exactly zero impact on the problem.
It would be more meaningful if we could use threads like this to explore actual solutions. As harsh as it may sound, manufacturors do need to consider making changes to how they do business.
Overall, original producers still have an edge on novelty. I expect most sales are done relatively soon after initial release, with numbers steadily decreasing over time. We are all tempted by the impulse buy of that flashy new release. One countermeasure could be to lower the pieces price as soon as a recast hits the market. As long as the price is higher than the production cost, its sale still contributes to profit. One could even consider to sell this lower cost version through a second 'hidden' sales outlet that looks much like a recaster, but is legit. With recasters osing their edge on price, this could be tried.
All this in line with Jason's suggestion.
It is a valid argument that could be tried....or perhaps is being tried already.

One could also think about a services-based model....like a subscription. Many examples out there in other lines of business that could be explored.

Anyway, would be nice if the thread will contribute to solutions, rather than be limited to moral issues, as valid as thee are.

Adrian

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys

This thread was put on for discussion, plenty of that for sure

To avoid going round and round in circles I am closing this thread down

Thank you to all for commenting

Nap