Regarding recasters....and a couple of questions ?

[rossbach]

Hi Guys

Thanks again for comments appreciate



I tend to agree with you to be honest recasting is a viscous circle ....which although may get broken at times ...joins back together all too quickly

The questions were just to get members thoughts ...there is no magic solution ...I think it's all about morales and needing to keep on about the ever ongoing recasting situation

Nap

So you have to brake the chain. But it seems to me we constantly get bogged down in theoretical/ethical discussion about definitions and what not.

The first step in the right direction is to write down what is considered illegal.

The second step has to be a coordinated step between manufacturers and show organizers and is to clearly show the public that visits shows what is not accepted.

This could be done by a collective protocol signed by all parties concerned. This could then be shown on websites (i.e. SMC or EME) and subsquently handed out to visitors.

Additionally those taking part in competitions could be required to take notice of the rules.

The purpose of this is to show the modellers what is accepted and what not. I doubt whether it would stem the tide for there will always be persons who will buy recasts. But manufactures and organizers at least made a statement against what is going on.

And needless to say with a proper protocol serves as a stepping stone to take legal action if needed.

Hope it helps.

 

[akaryu]

A few years ago at the Ransart show, a guy was happily displaying and selling recasts of busts from a wide range of manufacturers (Alexandros, Young etc) amidst other trade stands. Not one of the attendants of the organizing club was alarmed by the diversity and ridiculous low prices! After I told Gilles of Atelier Maket, the organizers looked into the matter, but IMO all in a rather nonchalant way. The guy had come with a friend who was an honest trader etc. He was not evicted forcefully anyway. If the people who organize a show lack a decent knowledge of the figure world and are mostly interested in their fancy tee-shirts or the success of their show in the local press, depending on their place in the club's hierarchy not much will be done about it, especially in the smaller venues where all are chummy or friends of friends! If the problem isn't taken serious, there isn't a problem, is it?

Pierre

 

[rossbach]

I just took a quick look at the following websites: El Greco Miniatures, Pegaso, Alexandros Models, Historex Agents and Art Girona.

None of them had some sort of message telling customers that they dissaprove the making, trading and selling of illegal copies.

 

[rossbach]

A few years ago at the Ransart show, a guy was happily displaying and selling recasts of busts from a wide range of manufacturers (Alexandros, Young etc) amidst other trade stands. Not one of the attendants of the organizing club was alarmed by the diversity and ridiculous low prices! After I told Gilles of Atelier Maket, the organizers looked into the matter, but IMO all in a rather nonchalant way. The guy had come with a friend who was an honest trader etc. He was not evicted forcefully anyway. If the people who organize a show lack a decent knowledge of the figure world and are mostly interested in their fancy tee-shirts or the success of their show in the local press, depending on their place in the club's hierarchy not much will be done about it, especially in the smaller venues where all are chummy or friends of friends! If the problem isn't taken serious, there isn't a problem, is it?

Pierre

I think you make a very good point here Pierre

 

[Nap]

I just took a quick look at the following websites: El Greco Miniatures, Pegaso, Alexandros Models, Historex Agents and Art Girona.

None of them had some sort of message telling customers that they dissaprove the making, trading and selling of illegal copies.

A very good point there let's hope they see this and act

Nap

 

[grasshopper]

There is no excuse for piracy. No yeah buts, or what about... answers beging with buyers and shows..the johns so to speak bs the hookers..

 

[rossbach]

And I just looked at the EME and SMC websites two big shows coming up.

Nothing.

 

[stu]

Recasting just hurts, it kills you slowly.
It kills your passion,your drive, your reason for.
Look at stormtroopers and whats happened.

I took the time and effort to protect my products on ebay but the slimey B00000s just keep on. Driven by sales !!!! Its big business too.

If you think figures and busts are dear and buy a recast I can assure you you that you are being well and truly shafted on price. Its a casting, it has a minimal value so £20 is very expensive for a recast.

China and Alirip off is another matter. If you buy on here then its a recast , no ifs no buts.

I have my own ways of dealing with things and they are not for everybody but then others still have a problem.

It only takes one kit to make many !!!

The scale of recasting is genuinely hurting

So if you are tempted please think first because its damaging our hobby

Stuart

 

[Tecumsea]

These threads go round and round without any resolution....and why .. because there is no solution.

Recasters and other forms of piracy are part of modern life and have existed since the dawn of free markets. There are many reasons why people buy recasts some have been touched on here, budgets, availability, recasts in resin of metal kits, some people buy new and recast and reserve the right to do so.

My view is that there is over capacity in the market with new manufacturers springing up almost weekly. There is a surge of new producers from Russia plus some new ones in Europe, add to this the recasters and you have fierce competition in a market that is not expanding as quickly as the producers.

I feel as a punter that I am totally spoiled for choice both in terms of quantity and quality, in that sense it is a buyers market

In my opinion the winners will be the company's who are innovative in their marketing and willing to adapt to what the customer wants, plus adapting to the new technologies..

All the shouting in the world will not make recasting go away, most of us only know a fraction of the people in the hobby and while we can profess to be squeaky clean there is a market out there that the recasters are servicing

This is a manufacturer problem that only very professional marketing can hope to resolve and this will mean tailoring your approach to your personal objectives whether they are financial, personal satisfaction or just the joy of sharing your hobby with like minded enthusiasts.

I must add that l have every sympathy with Raul, trying to make a living from the creative arts has never been easy and only a few in any sector achieve financial success.

This was originally typed on my phone, I have since punctuated it and added a few lines.

 

[grasshopper]

You are right Tecumsea..the arts are a lousy way to make a living at best, and the piracy problem will never disappear. It is a small market and who know how viable even without piracy. But it’s worth a try and worth speaking up

 

[elgreco]

Post deleted.

 

[Nap]

Post deleted.

?

Would appreciate a company's thoughts .....perhaps about having something on header page of the websites ?

Nap

 

[Redcap]

One thing I have noticed about recasts especially on eBay is that you rarely, if ever, see recasts of Russian manufacturers figures by the Chinese and I have yet to see the prolific Russian bloke on that site list (anything) that is produced /made by any of the Russia based companies. Perhaps those Russian lads are somewhat more 'robust' where their figures and financial interests are concerned and especially so against someone operating in the same country however vast a country that may be.

Just an observation that's all.

Gary

 

[elgreco]

We deleted the post because right now most of the manufacturers are attending Euro and we cannot speak on their behalf. Recasting has been an issue for many years and has increased in intensity over the past 3 years. We are all now at a crossroads where manufacturers and shops are having to close their businesses. This is the reality. Those who support recasters do not seem to realise the amount of work that goes into releasing a figure. The profit margins are minimal for all concerned.

Just to give you an example, a shop like ourselves actually pays more than the cost of a £15 recast kit to buy a new release from the manufacturer. On top of that we have to pay 20% VAT on sales + 20% tax on any profit.... simple maths should make anyone realise that the figures do not add up and any profits are really minimal.

Regarding a header page on websites, whilst we go to great pains to combat recasting, this is a decision that has to be taken as a group and, as resellers, it would be prudent to discuss the matter with the manufacturers that we stock. Having such a banner can have implications, both negative and positive, and modellers need to appreciate that fact. This is a livelihood for many of us involved in the industry. Please do not think that there is inaction. It is great to see such positive and encouraging responses from modellers. We - from our part - will continue to fight, no matter what. Thank you.

Cheers,
Matt and Celine

 

[grasshopper]

Props to Matt and Celine for speaking out...they have their livelihood at stake and these days the troll brigade sits in wait all to ready to spew..the recasters won’t go away, but maybe just maybe a few purchasers will stay away from the bogus stuff and stick with the known channels. Nobody is getting rich in this business. One of the more outstanding pro painters who posts on PF has a bust listed on eBay for $300... cripes, if it were on canvass would be $3000 ...do the bloody math...a 30 euro bust, whatever, might not seem that consequential for a maker or retailer, but that 30 euro piece might be the difference between keeping on and packing it in, especially if on receipt one sends that maker or retailer a note of appreciation..I can’t paint worth spit but I sure get pleasure out of sending Raul Latorre or Rico Chia a photo and getting a reply , even a request to use my work on the website...buying shit offers none of that sense of community..
Talk it up on PF and FB, and especially at Folkestone..look the Matts and Celines in the eyes...and decide..heart and soul or....

 

[JasonB]

I hate to say it, but no matter how much anyone says not to do it, points out the morality or whatever of doing it, its going to happen. And it's because of one thing (IMO): price. I have purchased known recasts before, of S&T figures. S&T are long gone, I have bought almost EVERY original S&T figure that I could find, some in multiples ( usually at a premium price. Thank goodness I got that 1/9 mountain man... ). I fall under the category of feeling that they are out of business and are no longer selling originals, so no harm, no foul. If they or someone else started selling originals again, I would be all over them. But when it comes down to it, when you look at 2 figures, one a recast and one an original, that have a difference in price that can be 4-500%, I can see why people are tempted. An original Young bust goes for between $60-$80. I see recasts of them all the time on E-bay for $25. And I will tell you this. The recast S&T figures I got were excellent, better than some originals by other manufacturers. No bubbles, excellent resin, and very minimal shrinkage. Would I rather pay more for originals? Of course, but thats no an option in this case.

My thoughts on it are 1)price to sell in larger volumes at lower prices. Selling 100 at a $10 profit is better than selling 20 at a $30 profit while the recaster gets the rest. Shrink the price difference as much as possible 2) don't count on creating/selling figures as a primary source of income. 3) Limit where and how you sell. If most members here are willing to pay the higher prices to support manufacturers and support the hobby, limit sales to members in good standing of this and any other figure dedicated site you may visit. E-bay is a sure way to get your figures into recasters hands. Selling though a online retailer assures that anyone can buy them anywhere in the world. Sorry guys, reality is you aren't going to stop it by shaming or morality pleas. I would say that it's like playing whack-a-mole, but its more like whack-a-cockroach. You might kill one, two, five or a hundred, but there are always more to take their place. If your time and effort used in creating the figures is worth the higher price, how much is your time worth trying to get E-bay or Ali Express to stop selling recasts?

 

[grasshopper]

It’s the buyers not the recasters.. it’s not volume either..this ain’t Wally World

 

[stu]

Question

If its just down to price...quality isnt really an issue then .
Also packaging
Boxart
Instructions.

Price/cost of kits has been mentioned alot. Most manufacturers sell to trade outlets. These outlets require a discount.
If you want cheaper kits then you would all need to buy direct.
But what about the retailers. What about their buisness.
Recasting isnt going to go away.
As a manufacturer what do you want from us
Recasting is changing our hobby but it is going to have some far reaching consequences i think

Stuart

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys

Thank you for Matt and Celines post ...well written and meaningful ....as Stu says also recasting is not going to go away and will continue to put a lot of manufacturers at the crossroads for sure .

It's Euro Miniature Expo this weekend so if your going enjoy and support the traders there , if your not go on line and purchase from their websites



You will notice now that we now have a HEADER on every page at the top regarding supporting genuine company's .

Nap

 

[JasonB]

Question

If its just down to price...quality isnt really an issue then .
Also packaging
Boxart
Instructions.

Price/cost of kits has been mentioned alot. Most manufacturers sell to trade outlets. These outlets require a discount.
If you want cheaper kits then you would all need to buy direct.
But what about the retailers. What about their buisness.
Recasting isnt going to go away.
As a manufacturer what do you want from us
Recasting is changing our hobby but it is going to have some far reaching consequences i think

Stuart

Good points. When I get a figure that comes in anything other than a well cushioned plain box, I think "there was some money that could be saved". Yes its nice to have a nice box art photo, or a fancy wooden box. But, if that is adding to the cost, I say lose it. I don't believe I have ever used any instructions that come with a figure. Perhaps some with complicated horse tack, or other intricate parts, it might be needed, but I'm betting we could all do without it. Box art is again nice, but I could do without it, it has little bearing on the quality of the kit, and if there are pics of a finished example on the manufacturers website, great. As far as price vs. quality goes, I think there are those who are willing to accept lesser quality for a lower price, or aren't aware of what they are getting. But if my experience with the S&T figs is any indication, the quality gap may be negligible. Again it comes down to this; what has been tried is not working. Doing it more and expecting better results isn't going to achieve anything. I am sorry to say, but in business, cutting out the middle man has always been a step in cost saving, and would also allow a manufacturer control over whom they sell to. With the tools that are available these days, creating a website with ordering, accepting payments through paypal, calculating shipping and paying for it online, doing it yourself is not that daunting. Perhaps not ideal, but yelling "shame on you" over and over isn't doing anything.