Riding Position on Mounted Figures

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Red Five

A Fixture
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Anybody else on this forum ride horses?

If so I just wondered what you think of the riding position on some mounted figures?

I ride a fair bit which includes on a rather lively and headstrong Irish draught horse and if I mimicked some models I see I would expect to be on the ground within seconds.



Andrew
 
There are different styles according to time, place and service. Some figures are done in action poses which I suspect look better on a model than they would be practical in real life.

BW

Mike
 
Different styles but the basic position remains the same. Find a picture of a rearing horse and compare with a similar model. Note the position of the feet. Whatever saddle is used the feet should stay in position and the body moves forward to maintain balance. Some figures have the riders legs going behind the girth or cinch if you ride western, which would cause the rider to lose balance. As for action poses the riding position has to follow the same rules of balance.



I've riden English and Western two very different styles. Leg position slightly different but the same rules apply. The Western saddle has the legs further forward and long and the English shorter. Figures often have the stirrups too long and the toes pointing down with the body out of balance.


To see what I mean. If you see a mounted European figure from say the 1800s Google up a similar pose from a contemporary rider with an English saddle. Look up the Spanish Riding School for examples.

Andrew.
 
Anybody else on this forum ride horses?

If so I just wondered what you think of the riding position on some mounted figures?

I ride a fair bit which includes on a rather lively and headstrong Irish draught horse and if I mimicked some models I see I would expect to be on the ground within seconds.



Andrew



That's an interesting observation. I remember reading something similar in the letters page of Military Modelling magazine years ago, I think it was from the horse riding wife of a modeler.

Just out of interest do you notice the same thing in 2D paint on canvas art?
 
I have difficulty with English, so I can not answer correctly.

In my life I have done horse breeder and accompanist in mountain walks, even a little bit of jumping ...

saddles several different styles ... to sit, keep your legs and bridle

with English saddle in my opinion the best way to ride, you feel the horse.

you should ask the examples to discuss.

but the truth is in the middle ... the balance is also in the precariousness of a rearing horse. true that some pieces may be less accurate but the equestrian art was not for all the soldiers and kings
 
I don't know if I'm the only person on here that has ridden both civilian and military saddles and horses. You're right there are a lot of figures where the riding position is wrong. It's just down to the observation and references the sculptor has used. For some reason you don't see many with legs long, heels down, and toes forward with the stirrup on the ball of the foot.(western style has heels "home")
I also see figures holding a sword in the wrong position or standing in the wrong drill position, I just accept that there probably not that many sculptors who have learnt to march properly (British drill obviously :) ) and even less that have learned cavalry mounted and dismounted drills.
Martin.
p.s. often said that none learns to ride properly until they have fallen off at least seven times. :)
 
That's an interesting observation. I remember reading something similar in the letters page of Military Modelling magazine years ago, I think it was from the horse riding wife of a modeler.

Just out of interest do you notice the same thing in 2D paint on canvas art?

I remember Mil Mod did a whole article about riding position and reigns. I may have it somwhere.
Martin
 
The best way to check the riding position of a figure if you know nothing about it is to try and Google a similar pose.

I will add that if you did what some figures are doing you would be on the floor within seconds.
 
Here is an example. When a horse rears the ideal position is leaning forward keeping the body upright and the feet on the girth. Now go and find some figures in this position. Going to see these guys next week!
 

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I have no doubt that you and Martin are correct about the best rider response to a rearing horse. Martin described it in an earlier post on PF.

Could I ask about the rider's response to this situation? The rider is ambushed or attacked by an enemy emerging from hiding. At the exact same time as the startled horse rears, the rider tries to either bring a lance, rifle or carbine (not a sword) to bear on the enemy. The cavalryman's attention is briefly and desperately divided between defending himself and trying to control his mount. I'm excluding the sword because I want to visualize the rider responding with a weapon that is more difficult to handle especially with a startled and slightly out of control horse.

Does the rider fall off the horse?

My non-rider's guess would be probably he falls off and/or gets wounded or killed and falls off. The resulting pose of the falling rider could work and be interesting enough to make a good miniature scene.

In my opinion, a more visually interesting and dramatic pose would be the horseman staying on the horse. What does the pose of the horseman and horse in the described situation look like?

All the best,
Dan

ps - I'm not trying to provoke an argument or be difficult, just interested in what a well-trained but surprised rider might do in such a situation and what that would look like.
 
the question to consider is: what age are we talking about? the technique of staying in the saddle has evolved ... here an example of how to get off a cliff before and after Caprilli:

Before View attachment 260082 before and after View attachment 260083

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Caprilli

Those photos are without any kit. I wouldn't want to lean forward like that with a lance. Even when you're taking a tank down a steep slope you try and reverse the gun!
Modern point to point, show jumping etc. has evolved from military riding. The Badminton horse trials for instance, were originally a military event. The obvious difference is that with military riding the horse is a platform to fight from. So in order to keep a deep seat we ride with long legs. Modern show jumpers ride with short legs in order to lift them selves up and forward. Military jumpers lean back.
I have no doubt that you and Martin are correct about the best rider response to a rearing horse. Martin described it in an earlier post on PF.

Could I ask about the rider's response to this situation? The rider is ambushed or attacked by an enemy emerging from hiding. At the exact same time as the startled horse rears, the rider tries to either bring a lance, rifle or carbine (not a sword) to bear on the enemy. The cavalryman's attention is briefly and desperately divided between defending himself and trying to control his mount. I'm excluding the sword because I want to visualize the rider responding with a weapon that is more difficult to handle especially with a startled and slightly out of control horse.

Does the rider fall off the horse?

My non-rider's guess would be probably he falls off and/or gets wounded or killed and falls off. The resulting pose of the falling rider could work and be interesting enough to make a good miniature scene.

In my opinion, a more visually interesting and dramatic pose would be the horseman staying on the horse. What does the pose of the horseman and horse in the described situation look like?

All the best,
Dan

ps - I'm not trying to provoke an argument or be difficult, just interested in what a well-trained but surprised rider might do in such a situation and what that would look like.
Dan, practice, practice and more practice. That's why it took so long to train a cavalryman. Again if I can dig out the pictures I have reference of mounted and dismounted fencing kit. Sword versus sword, sword versus lance, sword versus bayonet and lance versus bayonet were all competitions in the same way as lance,sword and pistol, or tent pegging.
Riding would be second nature, so that in the same way as you would avoiding an accident on a road without thinking. I think your lancer would react to the threat.
If the threat came from the right then the horse would shy left, the reigns would be shortish so the arm would be pulled straight and leftish. The lancer would turn his face to the threat and try to get the lance point there.
If the threat came from the left and the horse shied right then the best thing to do would be to bring the horse full around to get the lance arm in position.
Of course that's also why lances are rubbing close in ! :)
Martin
 
Regarding the Caprilli method I would never lean forward going down a slope or canter a slope that steep. Too much weight on the front legs. Your body acts a a gyroscope and with experience find the balance position by instinct.

I can appreciate the reasons for leaning forward but for me I'll lean back. Looks safer.

I can say I have been ambused at all speeds many times by pheasants exploding from the hedge. I concur with Martin that whatever the horse does you go with it and act on instinct.

I can't comment on cavalry tactic as I'be only ridden English and Western...although that may change.
 
Could you cite the year and issue? Would like to study it!

All the best,
Dan

I can't find that article anywhere! I think it may have been from one of the couple of specials that they published. Pre 1983. I think the illustrations were by oone of the Fosten brothers.
I haven't finished looking though! :)
Martin
 
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